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Author Topic: My god can you believe this !!??  (Read 3245 times)

Offline Lavan
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My god can you believe this !!??
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2001, 09:10:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SonyFan
America will be invaded by forigen hostiles at some point in the future. It\'s not a question of "IF", it\'s a question of "When". Every great empire in history has crumbled, often violently, and it\'s foolish to think that America can never be knocked down to the status of a 3rd world country. I want to be ready to defend my little corner of this country if the need arises.. the military can\'t be everywhere at once.. but the citizens can.


If anyone decides to \'invade\' the US in the near future, they\'re going to be using helicopters, supersonic aircraft, tanks, napalm, laser guided bombs, chemical weapons and ICMBs. A puny little handgun, or an AK47 for that matter, isn\'t going to help, so unless you have a bazooka stashed in your sock draw and a tank in the garage I doubt you and your neighbours would make much of a difference.

I now live in Canada, if the US decides to invade there isn\'t a thing we can do and me having a handgun isn\'t really going to protect me from America\'s finest from smashing through my front door.

:)
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Offline SonyFan
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« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2001, 11:08:33 PM »
"If anyone decides to \'invade\' the US in the near future, they\'re going to be using helicopters, supersonic aircraft, tanks, napalm, laser guided bombs, chemical weapons and ICMBs. A puny little handgun, or an AK47 for that matter, isn\'t going to help" - Lavan

You\'d be surprised. America had all that (Minus the ICBM\'s) when we fought the Vietnam war and guess what.. we lost. Then again, we also didn\'t have farmers picking our soldiers off at every turn.. they were just hiding guns and enemy soldiers. There wasn\'t even really a groundwar in Iraq, it was more like a 100 hour scirmish. We decimated their military, but had the citizens been against us rather than for us and decided to fight.. then we\'d have had a hell of a battle on our hands. There will always be ground troops needed to hold positions and gain territory that would be costly and difficult to invade using tanks and jets. It\'s those ground troops that we could fight against. Let the airforce shoot their planes down, let the Navy sink their ships, but the soldiers we could save by having the means for the public to help with the fighting could go a long way into retaking lost territory.

Besides, if ground troops aren\'t effective anymore then why do we and every other country in the world still have them? Because their cheap, vercitile, innovative, intelligent, and easy to manuver. The human body is perhaps one of the greatest military tools we have, unfotunately.
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Offline wiseboy
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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2001, 05:11:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by THE EYE
That´s complete bull$hit...
It is a huge difference to pull a trigger, or to take a person and throw him out of a window...

We here in Germany don´t have any guns alowed... and it doesn´t rain ppl... ...


Agreed. I know I\'ll just be holding my breath until my face turns blue, but something has to be done about the guns in the U.S. . If one really stops and thinks about it, it just doesn\'t make sense. Yes society is not perfect, but it\'s because of this reason why guns should be banned. Yes I said it. Banned damn it! Gun access only makes a sick person, sociopath, etc.. even more of a killing machine than they already are. I know we\'re talking about these kids here, but accident or not, without the guns, this would not be debated and the kid could have lived to play another day.
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Offline Lavan
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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2001, 05:30:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SonyFan
Besides, if ground troops aren\'t effective anymore then why do we and every other country in the world still have them? Because their cheap, vercitile, innovative, intelligent, and easy to manuver. The human body is perhaps one of the greatest military tools we have, unfotunately.


I understand what you\'re trying to say, but I still think there\'s a fundamental difference between trained army ground troops who would be equipped with tanks, heavy artillery, mortars etc. and the general populace armed with puny handguns. Soldiers don\'t go to boot camp and learn to operate army weaponry for nothing, not to mention the ground troops would be taking part in coordinated strategic maneuvers on the ground.
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Offline SonyFan
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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2001, 02:14:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lavan


I understand what you\'re trying to say, but I still think there\'s a fundamental difference between trained army ground troops who would be equipped with tanks, heavy artillery, mortars etc. and the general populace armed with puny handguns. Soldiers don\'t go to boot camp and learn to operate army weaponry for nothing, not to mention the ground troops would be taking part in coordinated strategic maneuvers on the ground.


There is a difference, a very large difference. However a bullet will kill a seasoned troop just as well as it will kill a civilian. If even one enemy soldier get\'s killed in a minor uprising, then that\'s one less enemy soldier to oppose our military... one less trained soldier who\'s good at what he does.. killing our troops. Now of course the average Joe citizen would be at a disadvantage against seasoned troops.. but the nation would not. Aside from the hardware, an invading military force would send over 1 to 2 million troops at the most (No country has over 2 million soldiers AFAIK). Now that sounds like a lot, but it\'s no match for half a billion armed citizens.

You also have to remember that Tanks, Planes, Subs, and Troops can\'t fight indefinately. If the public has the means to help the military to disrupt supply lines, then those Tanks, Planes, and Subs will have no way to get a relable source for food, fuel, or ammunition.

But perhaps being untrained is an advantage in it\'s self. While the military would move in plattons and flanks.. citizens would be scattered, making it very difficult to locate and destory opposition. A good example of this is again in WWII. Durring the D-Day invasion, the American and British troops flew into France upon gliders and parachuted down. However severe miscalculations and agressive enemy artillary caused our troops to spread across a wide area behind enemy lines rather than in a tight formation like originally planned. It was a complete mistake that ended up winning the day since scattered troops could hit enemy positions and run without revealing the location of every other troop in the platoon. Now compair that scenario against the troops who landed on Normandy in HigginsBoats, best depicted in the first 15 minuites of Speilburg\'s "Saving Private Ryan".

That\'s the kind of warfare I\'m talking about. If our citizens lined up in the streets awaiting the enemy, of course they\'d be massacred. But if they used their homes, buisnesses, sewers, parks, and other hiding spots to fire from at a distance and run.. and if they were disorginized enough to keep the rain of bullets comming at any time from any direction, there\'s not much opposing ground forces could do to stop them.

Remember also that the armed US citizens who helped the Continental Army fight off the British durring the Reveloutionary War were nothing more than Farmers, Bankers, StoreKeeps, and often times children who had nothing more than a rusty musket and a pair of swift legs. The Brittish on the other hand had experienced soldiers, an extreemly powerful Navy, cannons, and bombs.

In the face of two wars with the Brittish, a war with the French, a war with the Spanish, and an entire nation full of hostile natives who wanted to stop the white man\'s westward expansion, The United States grew from a meer 13 sparcely populated colonies along the eastern seaboard into the nation we know today. I don\'t think we could have survived without an armed population. Despite this peace, we still live in an unstable world, and are by no means removed from the threat of attack or invasion. I would rather be prepared for the worst, than allow ourselves to loose a major tactical advantage just because a small percentage of ***holes can\'t learn the difference between wrong and right.
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Offline Black Samurai
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« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2001, 02:49:22 PM »
I still don\'t see the logic in your argument SonyFan. Are you trying to justify having a gun? We all know that farmers and bankers fought in the American revolution against the "mighty" British; but there is one main difference. Back then they all had pretty much the same gun. Of course there were slight differences but overall they were the same thing. Now do you think that you and some of your buddies with 9mm\'s will hold off a group of enemy infantry? Even if you manage to slow them down they will bring in bigger guns to stop you.

If anyone were to try and invade us, which I don\'t see happening any time soon, they would surely start by bombing the hell out of us first.

BTW, I hate the fact that Bush is in office. At the slightest provocation he is probably going to mobilize all of the military for war.
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Offline warm apple pie
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« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2001, 02:54:22 PM »
it seems like they aren\'t even old enough to know how to share...how to hell are they old enough to carry a weapon?
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Offline SonyFan
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« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2001, 03:42:59 PM »
Quote
Are you trying to justify having a gun? We all know that farmers and bankers fought in the American revolution against the "mighty" British; but there is one main difference. Back then they all had pretty much the same gun. Of course there were slight differences but overall they were the same thing. Now do you think that you and some of your buddies with 9mm\'s will hold off a group of enemy infantry? Even if you manage to slow them down they will bring in bigger guns to stop you. - Gohan


No, I\'m not trying to justify my OWN right to possess a gun, I\'m trying to convey to you this nation\'s need to be armed in case we need to protect it. Now I never said individual citizens would have an advantage over troops.. but you can hardly argue that a town of 10,000 citizens (each armed with 9mms) would have no effect against a passing regiment of 500 troops. And would they come after you with bigger guns? What about the town they passed by a week earlier who\'s residents were shooting at them.. or what about the next three towns down the line that are fully armed and prepared for their advance? Then let\'s not forget their objective they still have to complete, not to mention the column of US armor in the vicinity.

I still don\'t think you guy\'s understand what I\'m talking about. This isn\'t me and my town against an invading army.. this is me and my nation, all of my fellow countrymen across the United States who would die to protect their homes and families. If all of Indiana has to die before even 1/10th of their military is destoryed.. then so be it.. because that missing 1/10th could be what turns the tides of war and allows America to emerge victorious.

And yes, they would bomb us first, but this country is enoumous and I doubt that once most of our military bases are hit they would have enough ordinace left to bomb each and every city, town, and village full of pissed off gun toting americans. Nor would they have the armor or troops to wage war against an entire nation for very long. Barring Nuclear Missles, there is no way a country could take over the US by force if we all stand up as one nation and fight them. Of course, if Nukes are launched.. all will be for nothing since MAD will leave more people fighting for food, shelter, and medical supplies than for land.

And why do you put "Mighty British" in quotations, as if mocking their military superiority durring the Reveloutionary war? ****, do you realize that Corwallace streight up kicked Washington\'s ass up and down the eastern seaboard when the war began? The Continental Army was on the run, and close to surrender, for most of the war. Let\'s not forget the Hessians who were ruthless master generals which lead Brittish troops in some of their most successful campaigns. It wasn\'t until our citizens had whittled down the Brittish army enough to allow the campaigns following Washington\'s crossing of the Potomic to be halfway successful. France wouldn\'t even lend AID to us, until Amercia had won a number of battles, let alone troops that didn\'t even show up until the war was in it\'s final stages.

It\'s not like we went out on the battle field and let the Redcoats know what the *uck was up. We barely won the Reveloutionary War, so please don\'t make light of what could very VERY easily been an almost utter defeat.
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Offline Lavan
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« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2001, 04:17:20 PM »
Wow, I didn\'t belive any Americans thought that way - and I don\'t mean that as an insult because you made some interesting points.

I just wonder who you believe would actually invade the US within our lifetime?

I for one can\'t see anyone actually invading, I think an all out nuclear fallout is far more likely, and as such I wonder is worth it to allow Americans to have handguns with all the negative consequences socially just for the possibility that the US might be invaded?
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Offline SonyFan
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« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2001, 05:03:38 PM »
Quote
I just wonder who you believe would actually invade the US within our lifetime?" - Lavan


I don\'t know. It could be China, could be Russia, or could be Jamaica... but that\'s the point. To be prepared to the best of your ability for the unknown. Like I said earlier, every great empire or superpower in history has fallen. It\'s foolish to think it will never happen to us. Then again, it might be our own government we end up fighting against in some Neo-Civil War.

Quote

I think an all out nuclear fallout is far more likely, and as such I wonder is worth it to allow Americans to have handguns with all the negative consequences socially just for the possibility that the US might be invaded? - Lavan


You very well could be right. However I doubt the American government would risk MAD if another country tried to invade us, expecially if the opposing country had a nuclear arsenal of their own. If there is any risk of Mad going into effect, chances are it will start somewhere in the middle east.. possibly Pakistan vs. India or just a random terrorist bombing mistaken for a preemptive attack.

Yet we cannot allow ourselves to throw away this advantage just because we "think" the next war will be a Nuclear one. Why not throw away the right to worship... after all, faith can be a dangerous instrument for persecution and "justified" murder in irresponsible hands. The KKK and Neo-Nazi\'s are allowed to hold meetings and demonstrate in order to spread their hate filled words to weak minds despite it\'s message which, at one time, tore our nation apart... and still does. Of all the things that spread hatred, violence, and anarchy that are protected by our Constitutional freedoms.. at least guns can help us protect ourselves and our country should it be threatened.

Now, I\'m not saying we should pass guns out willy F*cking nilly. That\'s dangerous. What I am saying is that we need legislation and plans of action which will help keep guns out of the hands of children and irresponsible jackasses, yet still offer us the oppertunity to defend ourselves if need be. One solution would be small armorys, but keepin all the weapons in one place is a tactical disadvantage since those areas can be taken out or siezed. Perhaps we could have guns that are hooked up to the internet wirelessly, and some chip in the gun which will read the fingerprints of the one holding the gun and automatically lock up if that person isn\'t supposed to own a firearm... or if that particular gun is reported stolen. Who knows what the future holds, but I say we at least try to use technology to better our situation.. rather than just scapegoating to worsen it.

There needs to be a comprimise, and we (This country) aren\'t getting anywhere by pointing fingers and picking fights rather than discussing the real issues at hand. The biggest problem most people have against legislation is, I think, a fear that the Government may try to do to handguns what they did to Tommy Guns and Marijuana back in the 20\'s, which is tax the hell out of them and then "Convieniently" forget to print more stamps or creating anal retentive laws that effectively ban guns altogether. (I.E. Tommys Guns and MJ were illegal to own without a tax stamp.. to get a stamp you had to bring your TommyGun or MJ down to the County Clerks office.. upon arriving you\'d be arrested for possessing a TommyGun of MJ without a stamp.)

A better solution is out there, one that appreseased both the needs for domestic saftey and armourment. It\'s just a matter of finding it.
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Offline KillaX
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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2001, 05:22:05 PM »
how did the kid get the gun........careless parent.......parents fault........but the kid pulled the trigger.........they are both to blame........end of discussion.......
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Offline wiseboy
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« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2001, 11:05:50 PM »
Sonyfan,

I must say that you have some kind of imagination there buddy. Wow, please don\'t take offence to this but the way your talking makes it come off as though you\'ve been preoccupied with this stuff more times than not. I think you\'re going a little overboard, if not being a bit paranoid with this invasion stuff. The bottom line is this. It\'s not worth keeping guns around in society when so many deaths have been occuring. Children being shot down in school? What the f**k has happened to our morals? I just don\'t think it\'s worth keeping guns in preparation for an invasion that may never happen. There are other means to defense and I\'ll take my chance with our military.

Yes it may be true that a person can kill others by other means, but depending on the method it would not be as easy(ex: throwing someone out the window). Whether people want to believe it or not, killing is more or less synonymous with the word gun and people have become too damn desensitized to the simple mechanism of pulling the trigger while totally ignoring the consequences.

I know a person who is from Bermuda who recently moved to the states to go to school. She was appauled by how many people had access to guns. According to her, guns are not allowed in Bermuda and last time I checked that country has not been invaded.

Also the way you talk about invasion is as if foreign countries will just be able to walk up to our front door and kick it down. There are gadgets like radars, missles, gases etc.. and another country would be foolish to try anything without paying a price.
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Offline Samwise
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« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2001, 01:27:22 AM »
Wow, this is totally unfamiliar to me (and most Europeans I believe). Guns? Invasions? I don\'t know anyone with a gun at all. I can\'t even imagine owning a gun; let alone using one.

If anyone was to go to war with the US they sure as hell wouldn\'t come marching in. They would send long distance missiles, nuclear weapons etc. I don\'t think anyone but the police / military should own guns. But that\'s just my opinion.
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