Constant PS2 problem (even with Bouncer !!!)

1. PS2 streams in REAL time. The DVD is easily fast enough too do this. If u had ANY idea on its speed you would know this..
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Hmmm, streaming from the DVD is fine for movie files, but it\'s not really appropriate for most games. At best, it can be used for uploading blocks of textures in preparation for entering a new section of a game (I believe Soul Reaver on the PSX used this technique).

2. The MPEG decoder can be used as a decompressing tool.
The developers can easily make the textures JPEG format.
Textures are normally smaller then 100x100 so u won\'t lose any detail goin from BMP too Jpeg. Only LARGE pictures lose quality.[/B]

JPEG can only be used to squeeze more texture data into the PS2\'s memory. Before use, the PS2 has to decompress the texture before sending it to the GS. Whilst decompression is done by hardware, there will be a performance cost each time.

If the PS2 had S3TC like the XBox and GC, not only would it give the console 6x more texture memory, it would effective give the PS2 6x more bandwidth AND 6x more VRAM with absolutely NO loss in performance (i.e. for free!).

JPEG offers none of these benefits.

3. The ps2 can stream too the VRAM 4mb. Which has EXTREMELY high bandwidth. Then stream back and forth between the MAIN men and VRAM. Using only WHAT IS NEEDED. Not wasting mem on **** that doesn\'t get used.
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That is correct, although it has less bandwidth than the XBox and GC to achieve this (less than 3.2Gb/s).

Once developers have mastered this technique, we should see great improvements in future PS2 games.


[Edited by Dr Yassam on 12-22-2000 at 05:08 AM]

Dr Yassam remember the link I posted in a previous forum where MDK2 developers stated that the limited VRAM is not a problem?And that they didnt expect PS2 to have such a texture horsepower under it?
I also remember reading somewhere that the total result of the PS2\'s texture abilities reach the result of a 64MB vram.
But dont take this as a fact becasue I am not sure where I read that from.

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

Originally posted by Dr Yassam

Hmmm, streaming from the DVD is fine for movie files, but it\'s not really appropriate for most games. At best, it can be used for uploading blocks of textures in preparation for entering a new section of a game (I believe Soul Reaver on the PSX used this technique).

There are some games streaming in real time right now. I think TTT does this.

JPEG can only be used to squeeze more texture data into the PS2\'s memory. Before use, the PS2 has to decompress the texture before sending it to the GS. Whilst decompression is done by hardware, there will be a performance cost each time.

Jpeg can be used as a texture format. Its alot smaller then BMP.. say a BMP texture file was 100kb.. A jpeg would be around 5-10kb. Like i said. Textures are pretty small. There wouldn\'t be a loss in quality in games.

If the PS2 has S3TC like the XBox and GC, not only would it give the console 6x more texture memory, it would effective give the PS2 6x more bandwidth AND 6x more VRAM with absolutely NO loss in performance (i.e. for free!).

Agreed. But remember. They can stream with it. Only using what textures are needed. GC, DC and Xbox don\'t stream like the ps2. They store there textures. So the systems need more mem.

That is correct, although it has less bandwidth than the XBox and GC to achieve this (less than 3.2Gb/s).

3.2Gb is plenty for streaming.

Originally posted by Unicron!
Dr Yassam remember the link I posted in a previous forum where MDK2 developers stated that the limited VRAM is not a problem?And that they didnt expect PS2 to have such a texture horsepower under it?

I do , they were streaming textures in the way descibed above. An interesting read.

Note: I\'m not disputing the PS2\'s abilities to stream textures, just clearing up a few facts.

I also remember reading somewhere that the total result of the PS2\'s texture abilities reach the result of a 64MB vram.
But dont take this as a fact becasue I am not sure where I read that from.[/B]

Guess what we\'ll find if we apply the same calculations to the XBox and GC.

The PS2 is a great console, but it\'s capabilities should be kept in perspective.

Actually we shouldnt have even been talking about the PS2 abilities.
We can see many quality games on PS2 and still we havent seen the projects closed behing doors like Naugty Dog\'s.

But again like you said (Dr Yassam)"The PS2 is a great console, but it\'s capabilities should be kept in perspective".But again we might see games beyond our expectations.

There is always the unexpected


[Edited by Unicron! on 12-22-2000 at 04:19 PM]

Merry X-mas to all of you out there!

I wasn\'t NET capable for a few days... I\'ve read all those "things" you wrote.. just some FACTS as always !

First of all I don\'t want to ruin your amusement! We had a PS2 at our company (once again, I work for a game-developer company) back in March, 7th. We looked at the games and found them really nice, and impressive! BUT!! Those were Ridge Racer 5 and Tekken Tag. We haven\'t seen that quaility games since!!!! THat\'s sad.

So, don\'t tell me DVD streaming is good... EVERY streaming is really bad and it\'s an ALTERNATIVE, not the REAL thing. Somebody said textures are 100x100... well, maybe on early voodoo1 pc games, even on ps1 textures were bigger (256x256) and on the DC they\'re 256x256 or 512x512 imagine how many would fit in the "BIG" 4MB VRAM (which is max. 2 mem of texture mem as you\'d need 2 MB for frame buffer) guess ??? 4 (!!!!) of 512x512 would fit in the 2MB ! ((

And ofcoz you won\'t see pixels "thanks" to the well-known and unfamous BI-LINEAR which makes it all blurry...

I didn\'t want to talk about developing for PS2 as EVERY programmer and even big companies like Oddworld, or Konami stated that it\'s VERY HARD to develop to ps. I guess they will choose another platform with much easier development kits. I think sony made a mistake and instead of admitting it they\'re going to push it down our throat!

Ofcourse there will be some VERY NICE and good games but the other xxxx will be TRASH! No time to finish a development... GT3 and Bouncer was both announced for 00\' march and were the hell are they ?? hmm ? It\'s DAAAAAMN hard to develop and they just realized that... Anyway japanese are really work-maniacs, and also nacionalists enough to hype the PS2.

I think this thread may be ended... I\'m a very big SONY fun I own almost every category of sony related stuffs, but PS2 is really a mistake.

That\'s it...

Bye folks!

FAN@X

ps1 games did evolve over time...but one thing for sure is that in the past microsoft wass not in the market....with microsoft will be in the market at least 1/1.5 years after ps2 released...microsoft will be a major pain in the a-s-s for sony...
But my heart still go for Sony...
Sony RuleZ......

We had a PS2 at our company (once again, I work for a game-developer company) back in March, 7th

So you work for a game company, just curious what is the name of this "game company" where is it based what does it devolop and what\'s your position [ and no JANITORIAL Engineer doesn\'t qualify as a position]. If you had a ps2 to back in March then it was a Jap ps2 and you where using EARLY Japanese games to make your conlusions on what the system is [ or atleast that\'s what I\'m getting from what you say]. And lastly what games did you you look @.
I don\'t submit posts alot but I read here ALOT and have been in this forum very regulary since Jan \'00 and I know that people like you come and go like the virtual boy [ :P ] and to be honest I think the people [ atleast most of them] here talk about facts look at things from differeent perspectives ,accept it if there wrong  and don\'t make biased opinions or statements toward one party. I hope the mods close this topic because it has turned out to be just a flame war.

doctor-death-REBORN:Mr Fan@X doesnt answer.He is not a game developer.He isnt stating anything to prove that DVD streaming isnt good.Ans as I said before MDK2 developers(quaranteed developers not people saing they are developers like mr Fan@X)said that the PS2 has an enormous texture power.Unepexted power.

Yes, tell us some proof that you REALLY belong to a game developer company. Sorry, I don\'t want to bash you rightaway, but I\'d be pleased to know.

Firstly, I wouldn\'t complain. For example, Timesplitters. Maybe the textures look n64ish when looked close but SO WHAT? TS isn\'t the best PS2 can do in graphical section, far from it. The game\'s about speed. Can you count how many polygons there can be in one screen at time and still running at fast speeds?

( take for example Mansion level in Arcade mode and then LastStand and move onto phase 2 and count the zombies before you die... )

Oh and look at the textures in SSX. BEAUTIFUL.

And how can you say "even with Bouncer" before you\'ve even played it? Those pics look really good and textures bright and hi-res. Plus then add the game in motion with fast speeds and you\'ve got your eye-candy.

Believe me, you\'re going to eat your words, Fan@x.

Now don\'t bash FAN@X so hard; tell him facts if he\'s wrong. I\'m not a technical person, so I can\'t state this subject by that point-of-view but I think it\'s better to have one post a gamers-point-of-view ( a reqular gamer who doesn\'t know the technical details ).

DVD streaming for textures Im unsure about, yeah it would be great for say having a TV screen or large movie billboard ingame - but Im unsure about spooling textures off as needed, it would require exceptional thought in how they organise information on the DVD, great if you just want to fill the 4MB of VRAM for the next room in the game, but perhaps latency would make this method inpractical.

As someone had stated earlier, yes, it has been done in games, spooling information for textures off the CD and into the consoles memory before use in the game \'pre-caching\' if you will, would be usable if its execution was well thought out and information neatly arranged on the disc. But also; remember that textures could just as easily be stored in MPEG2 format in main memory of the PS2 before being decoded (EE IPU) and then shipped off to the GS making the 16Mb or so of RAM which the PS2 has ample, the question is - does it have enough bandwidth for this concept to work and is it easy enough for the developers to utilize, at the moment, apparently no. But thats not to say that it isnt possible - I think its likely to see after a short while developers start to learn how to use the machine in the way its designed as opposed to bastardising current concepts in the hope that they may work.

Of course I cant really say how close or far any of us are to the truth -its not like I know anything about the difficulties of programming a PS2 or such I just have a crash course idea about how it, in theory, should work. Whoever says that they are 100% sure a certain method is better is more than likely not speaking from their knowledge but rather just trying to get some flames going. The only proof anyone will have that this type of system will work will be looking at the efforts of the developers further down the road, give it time.

BTW: Merry Xmas.

-bd