X-Box will surprise you. I garrantee it.

I totaly agree with what you said Ironfist. Just because a game looks realistic, it doesn\'t mean that it\'s got good graphics. I would rather a fighter like Guilty Gear X then Dead or Alive 3 (at least graphics wise) because of the style..

And Watchdog.. stop telling people to stop bad mouthing the xbox games before they play them.. Because, you haven\'t played the games either and you\'re praising them..

Ok, one more time.

I do not like the look of cell shaded games (eg JSR).  It\'s not for me.  But I can see the artistry of it.  The talent of the designers and the merits of the engine.  I can say that the graphics are great, just not my thing.  This is objectivity.  This is an unbiased opinion.  Saying that the graphics in DOA3 aren\'t good is lunacy.  If you cannot see the graphical merits of the game then you are closeminded and stubborn.

I personally hate the graphical direction Zelda has taken, but I can saw that for a cell shaded game it looks great.

Do you see what I\'m saying here?

I\'m sure if I went back into the forums, I would find that many of you were commenting on how good TTT looks.  DOA3 is the natural progression of it.  The character are nearly unsurpassed and the environments are breathtaking (ie beach, forest).  If you can\'t objectively say this, then you are not being true to yourself.

You don\'t have to life the realistic graphics (whatever), but you have to say that the graphics team is a talented group and we haven\'t seen realistic graphics that good ever.  Here you can cut and paste this sentence into your reply.

begin cutting and pasting:
___________
I do not like the graphics of DOA3; however, I can say without hesitation that the xbox is a powerful graphics machine and that DOA3, in its chosen style, is unmatched graphically.
___________

end cutting and pasting.  This is an opinion, and it still leaves room for the truth.

It\'s unanimous because every reputable gaming source ahs extolled the virtues of the graphical prowess of the xbox (specifically DOA3 and Halo).  I have never read a reviewer (again a credible one) say that the graphics in DOA3 are bad.  That is why I say unanimous.

And please, for God\'s sake stop calling it a review.  It was a quick hands on that is completely valid, that I\'ve seen in many reputable publications.  Many of us here take the word of IGN and purchase the game based on their opinion alone.  I played the game for 1/2 hour (not 15 minutes) and watched it for a while longer and can say that I got a good impression of the game play and style.  From the review of IGN I was able to descern that the gameplay doesn\'t evolve too much.  It\'s like ICO after fighting a couple ghosts, you don\'t need to fight all of them to get an idea of how the fighting engine will work or how the game will play.  SH2 is no different.

I never commented on the gameplay of any xbox title.  I\'ve commetted about the graphics and defered to publications like IGN and NExtgen about gameplay.  Don\'t put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Watchdog
I\'ve never said once "wait and see next year." Ever.  I never said you can\'t compare gen2 PS2 games to the first crop of PS2 games.  Actually your sentence is so wordy and unorganized that I\'m really not sure what you are trying to say.

Le\' me splain for you dog with your own quotes from another thread.

Originally posted by Watchdog
All these buzz words that Sony fed us are BS if you ask me. All these "hiden" features and abilities is Sony\'s way of covering up their shoddy system archetecture. The PS2 is a good system, but it is outclassed by the GC and Xbox. I\'m confident that I\'ll get another year out of it (2 max) before the GC and xbox start out pacing it in terms of graphics and games.

also from the same post

Originally posted by Watchdog
Especially since the PS2 will not be able to go toe to toe with these newer consoles in a year or so I just think the casual gamer--motivated by graphics alone--will go with a newer system.

Complete with the favorite troll chant "shoddy system archetecture" I took the liberty to interpret your words with the
"wait and see next year." line. My mistake for using quotation marks, though I believe no worse than your use of "hiden" while mentioning Sony BS buzz words.

Here\'s another example of trollish behavior from the same thread

Originally posted by Watchdog
Just because the GC and Xbox are easy to develop for, DOES NOT mean that the games will not get any better. That is wishful thinking on the part of us PS2 owners.

and from this thread

Originally posted by Watchdog
Saying that the graphics in DOA3 aren\'t good is lunacy.

Debating statements not in question

or how about this from the ealier thread

Originally posted by Watchdog
The PS2 is not nearly as powerful as xbox or GC--CPU included.

Stateing opinion as if it were fact, another typical troll tactic. Remove the word "nearly" and no one cares. This debate over opinions only continues because of how near all three consoles look at this point, IMO.

Oh and one last thing

Originally posted by Watchdog
One last thing on this subject: a troll\'s argument is always easy to refute.

Maybe if it\'s a stupid troll or you\'re the type of person that in your own mind wins every argument. Insidious trolls that can\'t see their own hairy toes? Much more difficult. That is, as always, IMO.

Well taking a quote from a different thread, out of context isn\'t fair--you know that.  The enquirer makes a killing out of doing garbage like this.

___________________________________________________
All these buzz words that Sony fed us are BS if you ask me. All these "hiden" features and abilities is Sony\'s way of covering up their shoddy system archetecture. The PS2 is a good system, but it is outclassed by the GC and Xbox. I\'m confident that I\'ll get another year out of it (2 max) before the GC and xbox start out pacing it in terms of graphics and games.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What it trollish about this?  Emotion engine anyone?  If that isn\'t a piece of market driven crap I dont\' know what is.  The PS2 was sold on buzz words and reputation--it certainly didn\'t sell on games.  Stating the truth, doesn\'t mean I\'m a troll.  The PS2 will be outclassed in a year or two.  That is another truth.  The GC and xbox are newer technologies and thereby will last longer.  This is true, even the staunchest PS2 supporter should be able to see this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Watchdog
Especially since the PS2 will not be able to go toe to toe with these newer consoles in a year or so I just think the casual gamer--motivated by graphics alone--will go with a newer system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this??  Joe Public doesn\'t know anything about specs or upcoming releases or anything that informed gamers do (the vast minority).  He sees pretty graphics and makes a decision.  I really dont\' see your point.  Again, let me say that this is out of context here.  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Watchdog
Just because the GC and Xbox are easy to develop for, DOES NOT mean that the games will not get any better. That is wishful thinking on the part of us PS2 owners.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trollish behaviour?  What exactly is the definition because I\'m confused.  Many posters were making the conclusion that xbox and GC games will not get better with successive generations (because of the ease of the dev cycle) but that the PS2 because of the steep learning curve will eventually catch up in terms of visuals once designers figure it out.  I was pointing out that this isn\'t true, that all games will improve regardless of the console with every generation.

Put in the proper perspective it doesn\'t seem trollish to me.  In one of my more recent posts I made a similar correction.  Someone said PS2 has a 2 million userbase.  I corrected him stating that it is in the neighbourhood of 15 million.  Both were corrections, the first goes against your frail ideology and the second would disprove your theory.  It\'s interesting that you chose not to post the latter.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Watchdog
Saying that the graphics in DOA3 aren\'t good is lunacy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stand by this and always will.  The question of graphics quality is indisputable--finally you post something within the proper context.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Watchdog
The PS2 is not nearly as powerful as xbox or GC--CPU included.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, this is no secret.  Do you believe otherwise?  Go to any VG publishing source and ask the question.  Perhaps I overstated the case a bit when I said "not nearly as powerful", but the fact remains that it is not as powerful and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

You obviously have a lot of time on your hands to sift through all my posts.  If that is how you chose to spend your time I guess that\'s your perogative, but I dont\' know what you accomplished by taking these posts out of context and presenting them as proof of my true designs.  Which are?  To create doubt in the minds of PS2 owners so that they purchase the xbox or GC?  Yes I am currently under the employ of MS to seek out and polute the minds of those that would not otherwise purchase their system.  Whatever.

I speak what is on my mind despite that I have two Sony consoles beneathe my television.  Anyone who argues against the PS2 is labelled as a troll or fanboy.  Do you not see the problem with this stance?  It may seem like I have more to "say" about the ps2 and that is because that is all anyone talks about around here.  If someone started a cancerous thread extolling the virtues of the GC or xbox, I would post there in the same manner I post to any thread--with honesty.

As anyone can see, posting against the PS2 on a PS2 board will not convince anyone to abandon their PS2.  The people who populate these boards are diehard fans and cannot be swayed by arguments no matter how persuasive.  I post here because it is a lively board, I own two Sony consoles and because I enjoy debating.  So you can continue to dismiss my arguments as troll inspired tripe, I don\'t care, I only ask that you don\'t misrepresent what I have said in the past by fragmenting my argument and taking it out of its context--the only place that it has any relevance.

First of all, what was with that last post?  Were you debating with yourself?!  (j/k Watchdog.  I know you did it to prove a point.)

Originally posted by Watchdog
The PS2 will be outclassed in a year or two.  That is another truth.  The GC and xbox are newer technologies and thereby will last longer.  This is true, even the staunchest PS2 supporter should be able to see this.

Wow, I don\'t know what your smoking to be able to see into the future like that, but I want some!  Seriously though, if you are basing your opinion that the Xbox and NGC will last longer only on the newness of technology, than you are ignoring a lot of other factors.  Like you said, Sony has a great reputation.  The PS2 also has great games.  Great developer support.  A huge userbase.  etc...  Just because their technology is newer does not mean the console will live longer, or even as long as the PS2.

And this??  Joe Public doesn\'t know anything about specs or upcoming releases or anything that informed gamers do (the vast minority).  He sees pretty graphics and makes a decision.  I really dont\' see your point.  Again, let me say that this is out of contexthere.

Again, like you said, Sony has a great reputation because of the PSX.  Many will buy the PS2 for this reason alone.  Casual gamers are not as stupid as you may think.  They know what kinds of games they want, and most of them do at least a little research before they spend $200-$300 on a console.  They know if the PS2 has a ton of games.  They know if the Xbox has a harddrive and a modem as well as a few awesome games.  They know if Nintendo has Rougue Leader (sp?) and other great games.

I stand by this and always will.  The question of graphics quality is indisputable--finally you post something within the proper context.

And I stand against this.  Good graphics are entirely based on opinion.

Again, this is no secret.  Do you believe otherwise?  Go to any VG publishing source and ask the question.

A video game publisher wouldn\'t know which console was more powerful.  Only the programmers know that.

Perhaps I overstated the case a bit when I said "not nearly as powerful", but the fact remains that it is not as powerful and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

I guess you haven\'t played ICO yet...

The PS2 is *drool* Soooooo powerfullllll *drool*

Yeah I played ICO, it did look good.

I didn\'t necessarily mean they\'ll last longer, I think all 3 consoles will be around by year 5 (projected as the release of the next wave).  I do think though by year 3.4-5, the age of the hardware will begin to manifest itself and that will result in a larger graphics descrepency.  It is a bit of a prediction, but no one can expect that 1.5 year old technology can compete with new technology.  That\'s all I\'m saying.  So yes it is a prediction, but not very far fetched.

I just believe that casual gamers, being less educated in terms of gaming, tend to go for the easy sell--graphics.  How many casual gamers know that project ego is coming out for xbox?  I\'d wager very few.

I didn\'t mean a video game publisher in that sense (I was incredibly vague), I meant IGN, nextgen etc.

Haha, here we are again at this sticking point: the graphics of DOA3.  I guess we\'ll have to agree to disagree because OBJECTIVELY speaking those are very nice graphics.  Styles and tastes can differ, but the talent in those graphics is undeniable.  I can\'t say any more without repeating even more of my previous posts.

Originally posted by Watchdog

Yeah I played ICO, it did look good.

Doesn\'t it make you happy to be a PS2 owner?  I know it makes me happy.  Games can only get better from here.

I didn\'t necessarily mean they\'ll last longer, I think all 3 consoles will be around by year 5 (projected as the release of the next wave).  I do think though by year 3.4-5, the age of the hardware will begin to manifest itself and that will result in a larger graphics descrepency.  It is a bit of a prediction, but no one can expect that 1.5 year old technology can compete with new technology.  That\'s all I\'m saying.  So yes it is a prediction, but not very far fetched.

But that 1.5 year old technology is actually extremely new.  The Xbox and NGC are the ones who went with the old technology.  He he he.

I just believe that casual gamers, being less educated in terms of gaming, tend to go for the easy sell--graphics.  How many casual gamers know that project ego is coming out for xbox?  I\'d wager very few.

I don\'t see how bringing up Project Ego is relevant to what we are talking about.  Feel free to explain that one to me.  I\'ll respond to it anyways though.    Project Ego is coming out in over a year.  When it gets closer to launch, it will be a lot more known to the casual gamer.

I didn\'t mean a video game publisher in that sense (I was incredibly vague), I meant IGN, nextgen etc.

Well IGN and Nextgen don\'t know which console is more powerful either.  There might be a really smart guy in the croud, but most of them just look at the specs and pick a winner (in hardware performance) from that.  Only the programmers really know which system is more powerful.

Haha, here we are again at this sticking point: the graphics of DOA3.  I guess we\'ll have to agree to disagree because OBJECTIVELY speaking those are very nice graphics.  Styles and tastes can differ, but the talent in those graphics is undeniable.  I can\'t say any more without repeating even more of my previous posts.

And I can\'t either.  We have come to a dead end.  So I guess we will have to do what you said and agree to disagree.

I agree with watchdog on one thing out of all the next gen system the ps2 has the oldest architecture so it in no doubt is the weakest out of the 3. But that still does not mean great games can\'t be created on it.

Absolutely not Quddos, I agree completely.  Part of my point is that people who go to forums and read the press know the importance of graphics, but the others are more easily swayed.

I brought up Project Ego because Joe Public will not consider what is coming out in a year from now.  He will see a great looking title and make the purchase.  It\'s not an informed decision.

ICO was a good experience all in all, but I wished for more.

Well it\'s debatable that Nextgen and IGN do not know if a system is powerful or not.  I tend to say that they do--they speak directly to devs and I\'m pretty sure they know.

On a side note: Does anyone else think the GT commercials don\'t do the game justice?  The game looks so much better than the commercial makes it look.

This thread\'s title reminds me of that "Men\'s Warehouse" commercial. "You\'ll like how you look. I gaurantee it."

Originally posted by Watchdog
I brought up Project Ego because Joe Public will not consider what is coming out in a year from now.  He will see a great looking title and make the purchase.  It\'s not an informed decision.

Purchasing a console for one game coming out in over a year isn\'t very smart.  Casual gamers know the big games coming out right now, and that is all that really matters.  Why wait a whole year for a game that still is all hype and has no evidence to prove it\'s greatness.  Can we say, "The Bouncer."  Buying an Xbox now for Project Ego isn\'t really an informed decision either.

ICO was a good experience all in all, but I wished for more.

I was only talking about the graphics.  The PS2 is very powerful and will be able to compete with both the Xbox and NGC graphically.  The game would have been better with more replay value, but it was still an awesome game.  I still can\'t get over how well designed that castle was.

Well it\'s debatable that Nextgen and IGN do not know if a system is powerful or not.  I tend to say that they do--they speak directly to devs and I\'m pretty sure they know.

So pretty much this changes depending on who they\'re talking to.  If they are talking to a PS2-only developer, then the PS2 is the most powerful.  If they are talking to an Xbox-only developer, then the Xbox is more powerful. etc.  Even if they are talking to a multiconsole developer, the developer wouldn\'t say which is the most powerful.  They would say something stupid like, "They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  Blah blah blah."  Most developers won\'t say which console is more powerful to outsiders because that would risk having a bad relationship with Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

On a side note: Does anyone else think the GT commercials don\'t do the game justice?  The game looks so much better than the commercial makes it look.

That\'s what I was thinking too.  They were very disappointing.  But GT3 already had so much hype, it didn\'t really need advertising.  Even the most casual gamers knew what it was and knew how good it was.

QuDDus,

I agree with watchdog on one thing out of all the next gen system the ps2 has the oldest architecture so it in no doubt is the weakest out of the 3. But that still does not mean great games can\'t be created on it.

The PS2 is the oldest console, but it has the newest architecture.  The Xbox and NGC are using architecture that\'s a decade old.  Is this a good thing or a bad thing?  I really don\'t know...

No but purchasing a consoloe for a group of good titles coming out is good--I was using just one as an example.

I don\'t think the PS2 can compete with GC or xbox in the long term.  I\'ve read this line many times in mags: "On the condition of anonymity, a big anme developer pointed out the limitations of the PS2"  or something like that.  It\'s older technology, and saying that it will compete head to head is wild optimism and it just can\'t happen.  And no, the opinions the staff do not change, sure they print interviews that may say one thing, but their stance has always been the same as mine--it\'s common sense that the PS2 just can\'t compete.  I wouldn\'t expect it to, and no one should.

Archetecture means very little--the Saturn  had all new archetecture too.  My P4 gforce3 has decade old archetecture and no one would say it no powerful.

You can\'t compare the PS2\'s success to the Saturn\'s success.  This is a completely different situation.  If the Saturn was given one and a half years to learn before the PSX came out, I think that the games made on it would have looked better than the N64.  It was that good.  The PS2 did get that extra year and a half though.  This is the key factor that makes all the difference.  All I can do is speculate, but that\'s all you can do too.  We will just have to wait for 3 or 4 years to see who is right.

Originally posted by IronFist

QuDDus,
The PS2 is the oldest console, but it has the newest architecture.  The Xbox and NGC are using architecture that\'s a decade old.  Is this a good thing or a bad thing?  I really don\'t know...

Your calling  a modified geforce 3 old??? Ironfist you usally back up what you say but this time you drop the ball.

Originally posted by QuDDus
Your calling  a modified geforce 3 old??? Ironfist you usally back up what you say but this time you drop the ball.

I think you missed something QuDDus.  I said it had old architecture, not that it was old.  The actual architecture of the thing is the same as it has been for years.  Please don\'t accuse me of "dropping the ball" when you really don\'t know what I\'m talking about.

And another thing, Watchdog agreed that it had old architecture, and you didn\'t get on his case for saying it.  Quote from Watchdog.

My P4 gforce3 has decade old archetecture and no one would say it no powerful.

Maybe you are just a little confused, or maybe you are taking Watchdog\'s side for the sake of not taking mine (because I am supporting the PS2 a lot more than he is *gasp*).