X-Box will surprise you. I garrantee it.

Yes, I love vague dissagreements and counterpoints: "There is so much wrong that it\'d take me too long to go through."  BS.

Anyway.

I hate 2001 A Space Odyssey.  I would never watch Blade Runner again.  I find Star Wars to be dull and cliched.  These are opnions that I have and are perfectly valid; however, I can say, and acknowledge that they are all either great movies or incredibly important movies--so much so that I would tell anyone that hasn\'t, to see them.  I can look at pre-raphaelite art and say it is great and wonderful even though I do not like that particular style.  I can say classical musicians are unrivaled in terms of their instrumentals even though I would never chose to listen to them.

These are honest, unbiased, rational responces.    I personally don\'t like any of these things, but I still find merits in them and can say without hesitation that they are great.

If someone can\'t appreciate exceptional art or any other form of expression then they are letting their opinion affect their judgement.  This is bias.

So if you cannot say that DOA3 has incredible graphics then you may not necessarily be a fanboy, but you definately are bias.

Well, people are already saying X-Box games are  shallow and crap. Well, aren\'t we forgeting..........

1.) None of you have played any X-Box games!
2.) I like my PS2, but even I can admit the launch games were boring, and mostly crap (except SSX) and there still isn\'t any  AAA games (and Grand Turismo3 is just GT2 with less cars and pretty graphics)
3.) GC\'s launch games were hardly wonderful from what I heard....I mean, Waverace doesn\'t interest me, Luigis Mansion looks a bit pathetic and the gameplay has been heavily criticised, and Pikimin is....good, I suppose.

Originally posted by Watchdog

The point I was making about the Official PS2 mag was that even they think the xbox is impressive visually.  Meaning that you are bias if you don\'t think the xbox has impressive graphics.  That\'s it.  You don\'t have to like the games themselves, but to say that you don\'t think the graphics are impressive means you are lying to yourself (and everyone else) or you are not impressed by any graphics anywhere.  Game tastes are individual and vary greatly, and I can appreciate if people disagree about specific games, but this point is unarguable.  

This is where you\'re completely wrong, unarguable??????, NO, every person can have an opinion and if a person thinks the graphics are impressive, its an opinion

No, that\'s where you are wrong.  If someone can\'t find a game in the xbox lineup that is visually striking in their opinion then they are bias OR they are not impressed by anything.  That\'s it.

Yes anyone can have an opinion, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s valid.  If I say anyone who is from race x is unintelligent and should be killed would this be accepted by everyone?  Of course not. This is an opinion too, however it is biased or more specificaly prejudice.  In the opinion of bin laden all tax paying americans should be killed.  This is an opinion too.  You see where I\'m going with this.

Originally posted by Watchdog
So if you cannot say that DOA3 has incredible graphics then you may not necessarily be a fanboy, but you definately are bias.

Again, I disagree.  It is not bias, it is a difference in oppinion.

Hypothetically speaking (I think that\'s the word I\'m looking for, but I\'m not sure), lets say that I hate the graphics in DOA3 because they are getting way too realistic.  I like video games because they are a way to escape from the real world.  I don\'t want a game that looks almost lifelike.  DOA3 is one step closer to the fusion of real life and fantasy in video games.  I want to know when I\'m looking at a game and when I\'m looking at something real.  So if I don\'t like the realistic graphics of DOA3, does that make me bias?  No.  It just means that I prefer less realistic graphics and don\'t find beauty in games with almost realistic graphics.  If I don\'t like the graphics in a game, why would I give the game credit for having good graphics?

And about that movie thing.  If you don\'t like a movie, you would really tell other people to see it?  That isn\'t nice at all.  I would tell them that I hated it and I don\'t recommend seeing it.  It\'s not bias, it is just a different, honest point of view.

If you can see that the graphics are too life like then you can appreciate that they are very good.  So you might not prefer that high a graphic quality, but you can say they are excellent in their own right.  Not for you, but for people that like amazing life-like graphics then yes.

Same rule for movies.  If I don\'t like a movie, but feel it is important (eg 2001 Space Odyssey) then I think people should go see it because it is a land mark movie that should be appreciatedby everyone.  If I don\'t like a movie because it is a horrible piece of Hollywood trash (Jack Frost--The Killer Snowman) then no I wouldn\'t reccommend it to anyone.  

All I\'m saying is that people are letting their bias get in the way of their objectivity.

Ok Watchdog.  I have one question.  Who the heck started this "there is nothing that looks good on the Xbox" thing anyways?  I didn\'t read most of page 2 because it was so big, so I missed where this whole thing started.

Back to the DOA3 example.  (hypothetically speaking again).  I am not going to say, "DOA3 has good graphics," because I don\'t think they do and that would just be a lie.  However, I will say, "DOA3 has realistic graphics."  Then the person I\'m talking to can come up with their own opinion of the graphics.  Again, "good graphics" is entirely an opinion thing and not liking a certain type of graphics is not being biased.

Originally posted by Watchdog
If you can see that the graphics are too life like then you can appreciate that they are very good.  So you might not prefer that high a graphic quality, but you can say they are excellent in their own right.  Not for you, but for people that like amazing life-like graphics then yes.

I hope Ironfist gives up on trying to explain it to you soon, just because they are life like doesnt make them very good, its all an OPINION OF WHAT IS GOOD, for god sakes please understand it this time, and when speaking of good graphics you will always be speaking for yourself so you wouldnt be saying excellent in their own right

I know it\'s old but it still cracks me up



With the title of this thread I expected some new info on why xbox might surprise me. What do I find? SOS

I\'LL be surprised if xbox doesn\'t turn out to be the next 3DO. If not being anymore impressed with what the xbox has shown to date than I have been with PS2 or GC makes me "bias", then that\'s the way it goes. Although I prefer to use the word biased instead.

Ever notice how when one long-winded troll disappears another one always shows up to endlessly wave the ol green banner x? Better behaved with each incarnation to be sure but still just as tiresome. It\'s a miracle!

Yeah, I\'m a troll.  You\'re a loser.  Now we can get along.  I could care less what you think, honestly.  I own both the PSX and PS2--you chose not to believe that someone can have opinions contrary to what their console might dictate and that is fine.  And like I\'ve said, this is console debating and this stuff is fair game.

Let me say one thing though: I have NEVER posted a link to show off a screen shot; I have NEVER posted screen shots, I have NEVER flamed anyone for their opinion; I have NEVER started an xbox thread; I have NEVER started a GC thread; I have NEVER started a PS2 bashing thread; I have NEVER taken a argument beyond the scope of a thread to degrade the PS2 or praise xbox/GC.

These are all common practises of trolls.  I\'ve never done any of these things.  How someone can be a troll without doing any of the above is beyond me, but I\'ve seemed to have done it.  My arguments are fair, not outlandish and not only against the PS2--I have pointed out the merits of the PS2, I have said negative things about both other major consoles.  I speak my mind and when it is convienent for you to call me a troll you do so because that\'s what people around here do when they find a point of view that differs with their own.  That\'s fine.  If it makes you feel better then do so, you won\'t hurt my feelings.

One last thing on this subject: a troll\'s argument is always easy to refute.

Back to the point.  You guys are being completely ridiculous trying to get yourself out of this.  It\'s truly pathetic.

I could call up dozens of threads that have said things like: "The water in ICO looks real--it looks like real water." or "The environments look so good, they are almost life like." or any number of posts that remark how incredible a game looks and compare it to its real life counterpart.

That is always the standard that graphics are to be judged.  That\'s why companies spend millions on motion capture technology.  That\'s why FMV and CGI are always so great because they are truer to life than in game graphics (also evolution of story etc).  That\'s why the debate about prerendered RE on the GC is so heated.  That is what graphics designers strive for (not solely--eg JSR, Mario--but for the majority of cases).

But if you can\'t look at DOA3 and say : "The xbox is a powerful graphics system.  These graphics are incredible."

Then your bias can never be more fully revealed.

Sorry Dawg, my troll poop comprehension level is really low tonight so I didn\'t bother reading your last post past the first sentence or so. Maybe I\'ll give it a try tomorrow if I get bored. Not much point though since you haven\'t written anything worth reading so far this thread.

I see you took my advice in another thread and got off the "just wait until we see how good the xbox looks next year" course. Man, that one makes the xbox sound sooooo saaad.

I\'ve never said once "wait and see next year." Ever.  I never said you can\'t compare gen2 PS2 games to the first crop of PS2 games.  Actually your sentence is so wordy and unorganized that I\'m really not sure what you are trying to say.

Who do you think you are impressing with your "I didn\'t bother reading blah blah" routine.  Just because you aren\'t intelligent enough to debate you cop out and say something completely transparent like that.  Nothing like personal attacks when you can\'t refute a post.  Nicely done.

This is all to Watchdog and his replies.

This is fanboyism or that person is not impressed by any graphics, anywhere.

It\'s not fanboyism.  Fanboyism, although not even an appropriate term to be using in this debate of what is "good looking" and what is not "good looking," is shown when someone says that Console A looks better than console B no matter what great looking games console B has.  However, definining WHAT is good looking and what is NOT good looking is a matter of taste, and therefore a matter of opinion.  If I said that Cindy Crawford was an ugly skank but said that the crackwhore on Main Street in LA was a total hottie, that\'s my opinion.  Unbiased only to my tastes.  Maybe my preference differs from yours, but in no way does that make me a "fanboy" of crackwhores.

The point is, people see things in certain games, movies, women, and men that other people don\'t see.  I see the new Link as an innovative way to revive the old Link into this new age, but others see it as cartoonie crap.  Who is right?  Who\'s to say?  Who cares?  Why should we all agree that the animation is fluid when we disagree about the overall look?  Is that not what we are arguing about?  I just don\'t understand how you can say that everyone needs to agree with the general opinion of the X-Box\'s merits despite them disliking the look of the games.

People don\'t like cel-shaded games, but I\'m not going to make them admit that the animation for most of them is amazing.  That\'s a moot point if they hate the look overall and that\'s fact.  Opinions are just that and you can\'t argue with them and hide behind your loose definition of "fanboyism" to change them.

These are the only explanations I will accept. And it is unanimous. I have never read a credible source state that there isn\'t one single xbox game that is visualy impressive. IGN and nextgen have both stated that halo and DOA3 are tops in terms of graphics and gameplay in their respective genres--that alone should be enough for most of us because we haven\'t played the games. Even the official PS2 mag mentioned that the xbox is visually impressive but is shallow with gameplay (or something like that). This somehow always gets ignored. Come on man. Wise up.

Unanimous exceptions for yourself?  Since when does our opinions have to meet your expectations?  Our opinions are ours and we don\'t have to state them with your definition of fanboyism or unbiased in mind.  We state our opinions because we call it as we see it.  Some people see the PS2 as the second coming, others see it as crap and vice versa for the X-Box, but you have no right to call any of us fanboys for having that opinion.

I NEVER said IGN wasn\'t credible. I had reservations with them leading up to the launch of the PS2 because every single day they posted some lame top ten list for reasons to buy the PS2. It was obvious that their objectivity was wavering. They are more fair now it seems. You should read carefully, it would save me a lot of time.

I think you have IGN and the now dead DailyRadar confused.  IGN doesn\'t post top 10 lists.  Dailyradar does, or rather, did.

Never said EVERYONE here were fanboys.

When you make a generalized statement, I take offense to it.  If you have specifics, then name them.  Don\'t be so hasty and lazy as to generalize us all simply because it\'s convenient.

Hm, last time I checked this was console debating. Reading isn\'t a strong suit for you is it?

This is the PSX2central forums.  It\'s main forum is housed on a site that talks about the PS2 console 24/7.  Sure, this is console debating, but it is housed on a PS2 forum where we are freely allowed to discuss and revel in Sony\'s black little box.  If some of us have reservations about other consoles, this is the place to do it.  If you want good multiconsole discussion with 100% unbiased gamers, if you can find people that meet your odd definition, then feel free to go there and discuss all this with them.  Until then, this is a PS2 forum with people who appreciate the PS2.  Live with it or leave.

It is a good game, but not exceptional. What gets me is that you write two paragraphs on a broken statement I made in parenthesies that was not even close to the spirit of my post. I never said it was a complete and thorough review. It was a quick hands on that I\'ve seen countless times in many magazines. You\'re an idiot. No really you are.

How much I write in response to any of your statements is my choice.  Targetting my message lengthis what makes your arguements less and less credible.  Second of all, you went as far as saying that the entire game deserved the "7" rating that it got from certain sites.  How can you say that for sure after reading IGN\'s review and playing it for 15 minutes?  That\'s right, you can\'t.  You know, the opening for Half-Life is about a good 5 minutes of moving around in a rail car and observing the surroundings.  Based on the Half-Life reviews on the net and my "impressions" of those first 5 minutes, I can easily say that Half-Life is the best FPS ever!  Oh please.  You scored the game based on your "impressions" and went on to agree with the opinions of those who had actually FINISHED the game.  I suppose if I watched a film during a scene with a heavy amount of dialogue and said there was "too much talking," and in addition, watched the trailers for the film, my review would be incredibly informed.  Awhile ago I wrote an article about ignorance being the best thing about gamers who are casual, but now I see that that\'s something I was incredibly wrong about.  I would never want to be like you, ever.

And even more crap about my broken sentence contained between parenthesies. Get a life. See above, calm down, and pop a ridilin. What made me laugh, and I have to thank you for this is this little gem: "Please, spare us this boring rhetoric, you obviously have zero credibility with reviews" HaHaHaHa. You call my little sentence fragment boring rhetoric and a review. Too funny. My god.

If you don\'t want your comments in parenthenses commented on, then feel free to omit them next time.  I comment on what grabs my attention and what seems so idiotically out of place, it deserves a comment.  Targeting how much I write to what comment is pretty low.  Are you running out of steam?  Are you finally starting to realize that your arguements are so completely shallow that they hold almost no weight or reference of mind whatsoever?  You talk about the majority and how it agrees with you yet you go against the majority in so many ways that it\'s almost blasphemous.  Opinions are like assholes and everyone has one and you should learn to respect that, but it seems the majority of people here thinks your asshole, or your opinions rather, stinks.

lol you know whats funny really Ryu

is when you think about it anyone can call you a fanboy if they want - someone can call me a fanboy all they want

the thing is really is thats their opinion and usually the misinterpetation of the word - but to them a person may be a fanboy

so what i am trying to say is to that persoon, in their opinion , the other person is a fanboy - so its kinda not so much a defenition

because even so some people see people through different eyes - like half the people may say that person A is a fanboy and the other half may say he isnt - its just a matter of how you see it and what way you think

just thought i would state what was running though my head at 1 in the moring

Heh heh... I am a "Fanboy"

I am a "Fanboy" of videogames...  


What it comes down to is... In a few years noone will care which system is best, shoot I just pulled out my Jaguar today for a quick romp.  I reveled in all 10,000 polygons