The Bruce Lee game for Xbox.

I stopped to lap up each Sony\'s words...or some developers...
...Sony really pissed me off this time...you speak about flexibility,potential,magical unexpected and untapped power...can you prove something?...the answer is NO! Because there\'re not magical formula in hardware...if you have limitations,if you have not enough texture bandwidth,for example,there\'s nothing you can do...

What limitations are you talking of?

Why Texturing on the DC(Shenmue2) is still equal or better than PS2?

There are some better games on PS2 what textures are concern. And polygon-wise, the PS2 blows any DC game away. And what\'s so bad about equal textures? DC had pretty good textures IMHO and Xbox hasn\'t shown me something that is drastical better. I think you should do some rethinking...

Do you think that the magic streaming technique will solve the problem?...streaming from DVD? the macical technique exclusive to PS2?

People sometimes really show some ignorance(not speaking of you Heretic  ...)

What some guys can\'t realize is that the total 48GB/s bandwidth is between the GS and its embedded DRAM. And not all of those bandwidth can be used for texture.
Infact, the texture read/write bus width is only 512-bit. Thus, by multiplying it by the GS\'s clock speed (147.5 MHz), you get 9.4 GB/s texture read/write bandwidth.
Anyway, back to the topic of streaming. Memory bandwidth plays almost no roll at all in streaming data from the DVD drive to memory. Why? Because the data transfer rate is limited by the DVD drive\'s own data transfer rate. At it\'s fastest, the PS2\'s 4x DVD drive can only transfer 5.5 MB/s (4 x 1,385 KB/s). It can NEVER read any faster than this. This 5.5 MB/s bandwidth is NOTHING compared to Xbox\'s or PS\'s memory bandwidth. If it\'s possible on the PS2, it\'s possible on the Xbox. Actually, the Xbox can do it better. It can use the built-in HD to stream textures much faster than even the fastest DVD drive in world.

BizioEE, what the **** is wrong with you? You should be slapped in your face left rigt and centre. I should post this bull**** of yours in the arstechnica forums and you will see how fast you\'ll be ripped apart. If you honestly think that the PS2 relise on DVD-streaming techniques, then I really feel sorry for you. Who told you this crap anyway? And if you found that out yourself, we should all be proud of you. At least you figured out "why" dvd-streaming would not be an option. Bravo!

In a over simplified way...you have to compare The Main CPU + Vu0 of PS2 to the XCPU + the MCPX of the XBox and the Vu1 linked to the GS of PS2 to the NV2a of the XBox :

Main CPU + Vu0 ------> XCPU + MCPX

Vu1 linked to GS ------> The NV2a

Damn, do you even have an idea what the MCPX of the Xbox is??? It\'s the fricking DSP processor for AUDIO - or producing the 3D sound. If you want to compare them as multiple processor consoles, don\'t forget the SPU2 (Sound-Processing-Unit 2) and the IOP (Input/Output Processor). And don\'t justify your arguement by saying that the VU0 is used to produce 3d sound - it\'s also possible to use the SPU2 + the IOP - it\'s just easier to make us of the EE\'s capabilities because it is a lot more powerful than you can imagine. You give it way to little credit to just compare them as CPU + VU0 vs XCPU + MCPX.

Did I ever compare the EE to the XCPU directly? It has no sense...they have to do a different bulk of work...

Then why try so hard with your above figures which are not only incorrect in the most saddening way but also pathetic since both have their ups and downs?

You\'re complaining about the 30 fps of Halo...when we had Eternal Ring at first ?

The point is; you\'re saying that PS2-developers will need tricks to compete with Xbox, but you\'re completely denying the fact that Halo only runs at 30fps which is a "trick". You do the math, it\'s easy.

[BizioEE]

BizioEE, what the **** is wrong with you? You should be slapped in your face left rigt and centre. I should post this bull**** of yours in the arstechnica forums and you will see how fast you\'ll be ripped apart. If you honestly think that the PS2 relise on DVD-streaming techniques, then I really feel sorry for you. Who told you this crap anyway? And if you found that out yourself, we should all be proud of you. At least you figured out "why" dvd-streaming would not be an option. Bravo!

Calm down seven,most of people here are not interested in hardware...and sure don\'t spend time on the arstechnica forums...

...and didn\'t know that...

...And don\'t justify your arguement by saying that the VU0 is used to produce 3d sound - it\'s also possible to use the SPU2 + the IOP - it\'s just easier to make us of the EE\'s capabilities because it is a lot more powerful than you can imagine. You give it way to little credit to just compare them as CPU + VU0 vs XCPU + MCPX.

EA used the Vu1 to produce something "close" to the real time Dolby Digital of the XBox...wasting power for processing polys...why? Because the SPU2 + the IOP could easy do this ?
Answer me!

Damn, do you even have an idea what the MCPX of the Xbox is??? It\'s the fricking DSP processor for AUDIO - or producing the 3D sound. If you want to compare them as multiple processor consoles, don\'t forget the SPU2 (Sound-Processing-Unit 2) and the IOP (Input/Output Processor).

oh yes...I know...the Xbox Media & Communications Processor with Dolby Digital encoding support...ways more competitive than the SPU2 + IOP...please...

When I posted...Main CPU + Vu0 -----> XCPU + MCPX ,I forgot the SPU2(which was implied)...but I also said..."in a over-simplified way".....however...it does change nothing!!!!

What limitations are you talking of?

There\'re limitations in what you can do with the VU...a developer said that Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably... the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1...

There are some better games on PS2 what textures are concern. And polygon-wise, the PS2 blows any DC game away. And what\'s so bad about equal textures? DC had pretty good textures IMHO and Xbox hasn\'t shown me something that is drastical better. I think you should do some rethinking...

Some XBox launch games look better than anything on PS2...but how the hell the XBox could show something drastical better than PS2 after 3 months from launch?
XBox is a complex and very powerful machine and need time to be fully understood!
In 2 years I\'ll laugh at you! It\'s a promise;)  

The point is; you\'re saying that PS2-developers will need tricks to compete with Xbox, but you\'re completely denying the fact that Halo only runs at 30fps which is a "trick". You do the math, it\'s easy.

Halo is beautiful...but it\'s a launch game,developed on unfinished hardware...can you understand?

Did you judge PS2 for its first RPG/FPS ?



seven...which tricks did From Software use for Eternal Ring ??

""The graphics in Eternal Ring are an improvement over PSX titles, but certainly nothing to write mom about. Although servicable enough, the textures used are surprisingly low-res for a 128-bit title, and the character models are surprisingly blocky. Worse yet, the dungeon environment is often too dark to really be enjoyable and ends up seeming more like a quick-and-dirty way to get the title out of the door early than anything else...""

...maybe nobody can push a new console at launch ? or in the first months of life?  Maybe?  and developers have to come to some compromise...?
...but you\'re complaining about Halo...
......don\'t make me laugh !


IMO XBox is a superior piece of hardware and I can\'t understand why people don\'t accept it...

has this turned into a spec war again?

lets keep it on topic guys

Originally posted by BizioEE


?? :rolleyes: see above...

Why? Should I be more pissed at MS than Sony?
I gave almost 2 years to PS2...and I\'ve not seen the potential I was waiting for...now are Nintendo and MS on duty !


Please,have an ounce of sense and stop to reply to me  

Gee BizioEE, thanks for over simplifying so us dumb guys can understand what you meant to say. I\'ll go you one better and drop the tech speak altogether to make clearer what I was getting at.

MS is still putting the cart before the horse. Some would have us believe a big enough horse can push almost any size cart. Probably true. Is it the best way to go? Some radical cart pushers (Sony, Square) said no. A few revered and talented cart pushers (one Nintendo 2nd party head and John Carmack) said no also but were firmly convinced the year 2000 was too early to try pulling carts. All were in agreement learning to pull carts would take lots of time and retooling.

So for the first time we see a nice little rig running by being pulled. It took a while but it seems to going nicely. Now some smartass wanna be cart pusher comes along and points to the brand new slightly bigger cart being pushed by a huge horse and proclaims it superior in almost every way.

"But look" says I "what about those big carts MS said it was pushing at half speed a year ago? Where are they now?"

"Like with any new rig" replies cart pusher wanna be "These things take time. Just look at the measly cart that inferior rig moved last year. Now bugger off."

"Wuh?" says I

Calm down seven,most of people here are not interested in hardware...and sure don\'t spend time on the arstechnica forums...

...and didn\'t know that...

Well, if you didn\'t know that - then you never knew what the "streaming" that is used on PS2 is all about and it makes it really pathetic that someone like that (who has no idea) is trying to prove how much the PS2 is limited.

Well maybe that\'s the problem. I think you should do a little bit more research before you write something like that again. I could turn this into a really nasty one for you if I really wanted to.

EA used the Vu1 to produce something "close" to the real time Dolby Digital of the XBox...wasting power for processing polys...why? Because the SPU2 + the IOP could easy do this ?
Answer me!

Is that so suprising? Did you also know that no developer other than Naugthy Dog and perhaps Square really started to make use of the parallel chip-design (VU0 + Vu1)? What EA is doing is just nearly tapping what can be done. Once they figure out how to get more power out of the PS2 - it might slip there mind to try it the more complex way (SPU2 + IOP). So to answer you question, if you can do it with VU1 farely easy, why waste time on something that will take more time, cost and effort? Learning how to use the EE\'s vectore units has become a central task for all the PS2 developers that plan to develop for the system in the future. They are just at the beginning of finding out how to do things with it.

oh yes...I know...the Xbox Media & Communications Processor with Dolby Digital encoding support...ways more competitive than the SPU2 + IOP...please...

Prove? Oh right... there isn\'t any. :rolleyes: how would you want to prove that?

There\'re limitations in what you can do with the VU...a developer said that Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably...

Why don\'t you get me that article where a developer stated that? And WHICH developer? I am sure the developers at Naughty Dog would find this quite amusing (and so do I).

the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1...

Oh really?! Wow, have you ever read anything about the PS2\'s hardware? Just aswell that the PS2 only renders one texture per pass, it can only  add that much of per-pixel effects. While only one thing is rendered every pass, it has the 512/1024 bit up and downstream bandwidth to make for it. So isn\'t it logical to asume that the GS supports less? It\'s was designed to be used in a different way. And do you know what that results in? The developers having more freedom in deciding how they want to achieve something.

Some XBox launch games look better than anything on PS2...but how the hell the XBox could show something drastical better than PS2 after 3 months from launch?
XBox is a complex and very powerful machine and need time to be fully understood!
In 2 years I\'ll laugh at you! It\'s a promise

Are you telling me that the console that even introduces DirectX support is more complex than a newely designed "streaming" console?

Halo is beautiful...but it\'s a launch game,developed on unfinished hardware...can you understand?

Did you judge PS2 for its first RPG/FPS ?

I just answered this one.

IMO XBox is a superior piece of hardware and I can\'t understand why people don\'t accept it...

Damn you\'re funny. If I remember correctly, I just read one of your later posts recently where you told everyone how disappointed with PS2 you are and at Sony bla bla bla - and how only the X-box might be able to live up to your high expertations?! And now, mearly a few days later, you\'re raving on about it being a superior piece of hardware - yet you don\'t even understand what the PS2 was designed for and make stupid assumptions on what is supposedly better. The lack of knowledge in this area (PS2) is showing and if I can give you one advice: stop this nonsense about bashing the technical aspects of a console you can\'t fully coprehent as it not only makes you look stupid, but you\'ll also loose your repution very quick. Just say you like X-box better because of the graphics now and leave it at your that instead of playing the technical genious which you obviously aren\'t.

Basically what we have here, is lack of good artist or something, The player models are way screwed up, least thier nice and shiny though.

You are totally right! They can\'t be done on ps2! Even if Sony tried to make that game.....doing their best they cant make it look that bad.......and umm.....why are they fighting on a horrible looking...lets say........hippy floor?

Well Bruce did do alot of his movies in the 60\'s or 70\'s. (cant remember when he died) so that might explain the whole disco thing

[Bobs_Hardware]

Originally posted by seven
The lack of knowledge in this area (PS2) is showing and if I can give you one advice: stop this nonsense about bashing the technical aspects of a console you can\'t fully coprehent as it not only makes you look stupid,

i dont think he looks stupid.. cos i cant understand a ****ing thing he says.. ****ing tech heads *shakes fist*

[BizioEE]

Well, if you didn\'t know that - then you never knew what the "streaming" that is used on PS2 is all about and it makes it really pathetic that someone like that (who has no idea) is trying to prove how much the PS2 is limited.

"They" didn\'t know...they was implied...people who are not interested in hardware...not..."I Didn\'t know..."...you\'re funny...


MPR\'s Analysts\' Choice Awards

Best Gaming Chip Set:
 
1) Microsoft Xbox: Intel Pentium III, Nvidia XGU/MCPX

2) Nintendo GameCube: IBM Gekko processor, ATI Flipper

3) Sony PlayStation 2: Sony Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer

4) PC desktop: AMD Athlon XP, VIA Apollo KT266A, Nvidia GeForce3

give a look...
http://www.mdronline.com/mpr_public/2002nominees.html

Damn you\'re funny. If I remember correctly, I just read one of your later posts recently where you told everyone how disappointed with PS2 you are and at Sony bla bla bla - and how only the X-box might be able to live up to your high expertations?! And now, mearly a few days later, you\'re raving on about it being a superior piece of hardware - yet you don\'t even understand what the PS2 was designed for and make stupid assumptions on what is supposedly better.

You can\'t even understand english seven...
I said I\'m disappointed from PS2...and probably I\'d have had to wait till next gen to see and play what I want...I meant...PS2,GC and XBox whould have not enough power to show what I want...and later I added...not sure about the XBox...let\'s wait and see...and not what you\'ve said moron!...look at what I\'ve said...

*Graphics is important for me,but what I want is more available power for animations,physics,AI,collision-system and more interactive environments...in a word,more power for a more realistc and involving game-play...and a much greater freedom in the actions...but I know...PS2,GC and XBox are not enough powerful to show what I want...maybe the next generation  

...PS2?...months and months ago I believed this console were able to show all this...but I was a fool...or...I\'d say better,Sony made a fool of me..."The Next Generation Graphics...the Next Step...the next generation games..."...like a brainwashing...Where? Where?? Always the same game-play,the same games(J&D the true next Gen Game? Where?)...I\'m pissed off...Hope the XBox will show something more...let\'s wait and see....

IMO...the DreamCast is the only one console,right now,which has lived up to my expectations!*

*Yes...power is not the only limiting factor...but what I mean is that power is a "necessary condition",not sufficient!

Coding a lot of actions in a huge,interactive and alive environment,ruled by realistic physics where character move and react among them and other objects in a credible way whould take a lot of time,money but even power  ...so...if you have power...you can deal with this complex subject...if you have not enough power...you can\'t...
...and I\'ve formed the idea that all the "next" gen console(not so sure about the XBox) have not the power to show what I was expecting from these consoles...*
http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=18756

Can you understand what people say ? Or you\'re totally blinded with your fanboysm ?
May I have an opinion? or you\'re too scared by my opinions?
What\'s the problem?

Oh really?! Wow, have you ever read anything about the PS2\'s hardware? Just aswell that the PS2 only renders one texture per pass, it can only add that much of per-pixel effects. While only one thing is rendered every pass, it has the 512/1024 bit up and downstream bandwidth to make for it. So isn\'t it logical to asume that the GS supports less? It\'s was designed to be used in a different way. And do you know what that results in? The developers having more freedom in deciding how they want to achieve something.

more freedom?  fighting with the hardware and showing decent graphics and more or less the same game-play ? That\'s what you mean?

Look at the games...and stop to paste and copy garbage taken from the arstechnica forums;)

And stop to lap up each word from BS developers...you won\'t see "the next gen graphics" on PS2 bacause PS2 can\'t show what Sony promised! Open your blind eyes!

The lack of knowledge in this area (PS2) is showing and if I can give you one advice: stop this nonsense about bashing the technical aspects of a console you can\'t fully coprehent as it not only makes you look stupid, but you\'ll also loose your repution very quick. Just say you like X-box better because of the graphics now and leave it at your that instead of playing the technical genious which you obviously aren\'t.

I didn\'t say XBox is better or I like the XBox more because it can do better graphics
I simply said the XBox has the best potential this generation...who is stupid seven?

*you\'ll also loose your repution...*

What does it mean ??...I can\'t understand your english...

Why I\'m going to lose my reputation? Because I think XBox is a better piece of hardware than PS2 ?  ...please...

...and I\'m not a genius in hardware...and you too obviously !

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware


i dont think he looks stupid.. cos i cant understand a ****ing thing he says.. ****ing tech heads *shakes fist*

Sure I don\'t look stupid;) ...that odd human can\'t understand that XBox is a newer hardware...released 1 year and half later...and technically superior...it was my only point...bah...you\'re funny people....

"They" didn\'t know...they was implied...people who are not interested in hardware...not..."I Didn\'t know..."...you\'re funny...

First of all, you wrote "Didn\'t know that" (see above) and secondly, you were the one to start the crap about how the streaming is done via DVD on PS2 which just proves again that you didn\'t know.

MPR\'s Analysts\' Choice Awards

This is funny - what are you trying to prove? That these guys know which is better? Have they developed for all 3 systems? This proves absolutly nothing. Did you know that the PS2 won these kinds of awards in its year of launch? Proves nothing.

You can\'t even understand english seven...

This is crazy. Your english is probably not even half as good as mine and you are making fun of me? Check the following:

You said:
"I meant...PS2,GC and XBox whould have not enough power to show what I want...and later I added...not sure about the XBox...let\'s wait and see...and not what you\'ve said moron!...look at what I\'ve said..."

I said this in my last post:
"I just read one of your later posts recently where you told everyone how disappointed with PS2 you are and at Sony bla bla bla - and how only the X-box might be able to live up to your high expertations?!"

Maybe I really just don\'t understand your english, but if I look at the two things we said, I was absolutely right: that the Xbox >>MIGHT<< be the only console to live up to your high expertations. Yeah, I "can\'t" understand english. Very funny. LOL.

Can you understand what people say ? Or you\'re totally blinded with your fanboysm ?
May I have an opinion? or you\'re too scared by my opinions?
What\'s the problem?

Maybe you should learn how to express your opinions then, but saying some bull**** about how the PS2 works and all these limitations crap is not opinion - it\'s more like you\'re trying to justify why you think the X-box will be the best, but need to bash on other consoles to do so.

more freedom? fighting with the hardware and showing decent graphics and more or less the same game-play ? That\'s what you mean?

Yes more freedom. Since you probably don\'t program yourself you wouldn\'t understand this anyway - but doing every little thing yourself might be pretty tough, but in the end you can achieve more than just using libraries that other people wrote. The chip design of the PS2 is hardcore and it will shine with time.

Look at the games...and stop to paste and copy garbage taken from the arstechnica forums

Just another sad attempt to make me look bad? Please, if you think I copy/paste this stuff, please show me from where and don\'t forget the link.

And stop to lap up each word from BS developers...you won\'t see "the next gen graphics" on PS2 bacause PS2 can\'t show what Sony promised! Open your blind eyes!

Why are you speculating? It\'s fine by me if you say you\'re impressed with X-Box, but don\'t go out and speculate about how PS2 canot live up to the expetations. You don\'t know that and neither do I. And it\'s the same thing with X-Box too. I could say exactly the same too. What\'s your point?

I didn\'t say XBox is better or I like the XBox more because it can do better graphics  
I simply said the XBox has the best potential this generation...who is stupid seven?

What do you mean with potential? The potential to take the number 1 spot? The potential to deliever the best graphics? The best sound?

It\'s funny how you always have to mention how much better the Xbox is, but really have we seen this "really better" stuff yet? I sure haven\'t. Stop speculating and just enjoy what you like now on whatever concole, but leave the technical stuff you don\'t understand out of debates like these.

The reflections in Halo are kinda cool though, especially off ice surfaces. :smokin:

[BizioEE]

Why are you speculating? It\'s fine by me if you say you\'re impressed with X-Box, but don\'t go out and speculate about how PS2 canot live up to the expetations. You don\'t know that and neither do I. And it\'s the same thing with X-Box too. I could say exactly the same too. What\'s your point?

I\'ve been waiting for months and months games like J&D...I waited almost 2 years seven...and what I\'ve played? ...only a good platform! where\'s the next generation graphics and game-play ND promised? Where is ? a good platform with old game-play! are you happy? I\'m not! AI in J&D is comparable to a PSX platform! ND have been fighting with this hardware...and what did they obtain? Good graphics and old and simple game-play! At least XBox has shown Halo at launch...and I wanna give the XBox the same time I gave to PS2! It\'s my point seven...now is it clear?

Excuse me if I was offensive with you...