The Bruce Lee game for Xbox.

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by seven


What do you mean with potential? The potential to take the number 1 spot? The potential to deliever the best graphics? The best sound?

I\'m not sure if you\'re joking or...
XBox has more processing power than PS2,more rendering bandwidth,more texture bandwidth,more RAM,better sound capabilities,a built-in HD and easier to develop for = XBox has a better potential...is it clear now? Developers have the potential to do better games...ok?

It\'s funny how you always have to mention how much better the Xbox is, but really have we seen this "really better" stuff yet? I sure haven\'t. Stop speculating and just enjoy what you like now on whatever concole, but leave the technical stuff you don\'t understand out of debates like these.

*but really have we seen this "really better" stuff yet? *
Yet? after 3 months from Launch? but...can you hear me when I speak? err...I mean...can you read? Halo and DOA3 look better than 2nd gen PS2 games in the respective categories...and you say I\'m speculating?  funny!

BizioEE, it\'s pretty late and so I won\'t quote every thing (but I\'ll try not to miss out on something).

I\'m not sure if you\'re joking or...
XBox has more processing power than PS2,more rendering bandwidth,more texture bandwidth,more RAM,better sound capabilities,a built-in HD and easier to develop for = XBox has a better potential...is it clear now? Developers have the potential to do better games...ok?

*but really have we seen this "really better" stuff yet? *
Yet? after 3 months from Launch? but...can you hear me when I speak? err...I mean...can you read? Halo and DOA3 look better than 2nd gen PS2 games in the respective categories...and you say I\'m speculating? funny!

Well, I\'ve played both Xbox games (Halo and DoA3) and the graphics are really gorgeous I will admit. And of course you\'re right, where graphics are concern, PS2 has nothing out (US and PAL) that can compete. But if I may ask you, with what are you comparing DoA3? With

1.) Tekken Tag Tournament? Out since day 1 - not even a real sequel.

or

2.) Dead or Alive 2: HC? Out also since day 1 - not even an original game, but just a sloppy port of the DC "exclusive" game.

As you can see, there are no other games in this genre to compare to DoA3, so logically there is no competition (in terms of graphics). I think it\'s pretty unfair to compare DoA3 with a soon 2 year old game that for one was just a port (DoA2:HC) or an update and rushed launch game (TTT). I think we can all make a pretty good comparasment when Virtua Fighter 4 and Tekken 4 hit shelves. Than we can compare them to DoA3 IMHO.

As for HALO, here too I got to agree that there aren\'t any FPS that can match this game on a a) graphical, b) physics and c) playable scale. But I refuce to think that it\'s the PS2 hardware that limits these points in games like RedFaction or TimeSplitters. I think Halo is a fine peace of coding and the result of a very talented team. I doubt that the effort that went behind Halo was put behind any FPS on PS2 so far (Halo has been in development for years). I\'ll give credit where it\'s due and Halo definately deserves it, but PS2 not having any games comparable yet is not because of its hardware-limitation but more with the effort and learning time.

BizioEE, I know what you mean. I\'ve waited a long time too for Jak & Daxter to arrive and do you know what? I love the game. Not only because of its gameplay but also because of the technical aspects. This is the first game to really implement streaming: as a result, you don\'t have any loading times and the draw distance is incredible. The textures are very detailed, although this might not seem to be true since it\'s all cartoony looking. Just take a close look at all the textures and you will see that they are very colourful and detailed. The other thing that\'s amazing about this game is the way everything seems to be alive. You\'ve got the real time weather effects, the beautiful water, the butterflies, birds, leaves and trees moving, daxter\'s beautiful animations and lots more. No loading times, no drop in framerate. And this game doesn\'t even have everything in it - apprearently the next game will be the fully finished engine which will also feature bump-mapping etc. And BizioEE, it took 2 years for this game to arrive and it\'s undoubtly the first to really make use of the PS2 chip-design. This doesn\'t mean that the Ps2 is maxed out, but that it\'s just the beginning and that they will improve from there. And as far as I can tell, EvolutionStudios (WRC) have made some amazing steps up, V-Rally 3 looks amazing and of course the new TOCA. Hope the screens become reality though, but time will show. I do have the faith and technical understanding to hope that those screens will be real-time running of my PS2 soon. I also can\'t wait to think what GT4 might look like - especially when GT3 supposedly makes out 25% of the EE\'s performance (accoarding by the PA2 == pretty accurate data).

All in all, I think what I really want to convince people around here, is that it doesn\'t really matter which console has the most bandwidth, the most memory or the fastest rendering chip. Almost every article that analyse these consoles are contradicted by the next article on the net, so who are we to believe? What really determins how good a game looks is not necesserally the hardware, but the effort, talent, time and knowledge a developer puts behind their game that makes the difference. That\'s why there are games on PS2 that still outshine Xbox games and vise-versa (each in there own category). Forget the specs and just enjoy the games you play. Which reminds me of which: just played a N64 classic lately (mario tennis) with friends and LOVED IT!

The Xbox has superior hardware in just about everything, but keep this in mind.

Its not going to magically transform a crap developer into an awesome developer.

It can however take great developers and make it easier for them to get to the hardware and give them more powerfull effects with more frames per second.

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by seven
BizioEE, it\'s pretty late and so I won\'t quote every thing (but I\'ll try not to miss out on something).



Well, I\'ve played both Xbox games (Halo and DoA3) and the graphics are really gorgeous I will admit. And of course you\'re right, where graphics are concern, PS2 has nothing out (US and PAL) that can compete. But if I may ask you, with what are you comparing DoA3? With

1.) Tekken Tag Tournament? Out since day 1 - not even a real sequel.

or

2.) Dead or Alive 2: HC? Out also since day 1 - not even an original game, but just a sloppy port of the DC "exclusive" game.

As you can see, there are no other games in this genre to compare to DoA3, so logically there is no competition (in terms of graphics). I think it\'s pretty unfair to compare DoA3 with a soon 2 year old game that for one was just a port (DoA2:HC) or an update and rushed launch game (TTT). I think we can all make a pretty good comparasment when Virtua Fighter 4 and Tekken 4 hit shelves. Than we can compare them to DoA3 IMHO.

DOA3 looks better than VF4 arcade...and FV4 on PS2 looks worse than the arcade,with notable jaggies...and isn\'t it a good and reliable comparison?...well...thinking of it again,I should say NO...bacause DOA3 was developed on unfinished hardware;)...that\'s why I\'m impressed by the graphics capabilities of the XBox...

BizioEE, I know what you mean. I\'ve waited a long time too for Jak & Daxter to arrive and do you know what? I love the game. Not only because of its gameplay but also because of the technical aspects. This is the first game to really implement streaming: as a result, you don\'t have any loading times and the draw distance is incredible. The textures are very detailed, although this might not seem to be true since it\'s all cartoony looking. Just take a close look at all the textures and you will see that they are very colourful and detailed. The other thing that\'s amazing about this game is the way everything seems to be alive. You\'ve got the real time weather effects, the beautiful water, the butterflies, birds, leaves and trees moving, daxter\'s beautiful animations and lots more. No loading times, no drop in framerate.

Don\'t get me wrong...I enjoyed J&D and I consider it a good platform but...I was waiting much more...
Textures are well done...but not very detailed...and the water is not beautiful...it\'s an evolution over the water in Crash of PSX! The animations are smooth but I\'m not impressed overall,and the trees? Why are you impressed by the animations of the trees in J&D?...they\'re nice,not impressive...maybe it\'s just me...and I\'ve seen drop in framerate...

 And this game doesn\'t even have everything in it - apprearently the next game will be the fully finished engine which will also feature bump-mapping etc. And BizioEE, it took 2 years for this game to arrive and it\'s undoubtly the first to really make use of the PS2 chip-design. This doesn\'t mean that the Ps2 is maxed out, but that it\'s just the beginning and that they will improve from there.

I hope seven! I don\'t want a J&D 2 with some improvements in graphics with the possibilities to control some other characters,some extra moves and the same game-play(look at crash)...but it\'s what will probably happen...I hope to be wrong though !!!

All in all, I think what I really want to convince people around here, is that it doesn\'t really matter which console has the most bandwidth, the most memory or the fastest rendering chip. Almost every article that analyse these consoles are contradicted by the next article on the net, so who are we to believe?

Agreed...though a new hardware which is released 1 year and half later should be more powerful...it\'s how technology works...

 What really determins how good a game looks is not necesserally the hardware, but the effort, talent, time and knowledge a developer puts behind their game that makes the difference. That\'s why there are games on PS2 that still outshine Xbox games and vise-versa (each in there own category). Forget the specs and just enjoy the games you play. Which reminds me of which: just played a N64 classic lately (mario tennis) with friends and LOVED IT!

You know each reasonable guy have to agree with you...it\'s not the hardware alone which makes the difference,developers do!
...so a crappy developer on the best hardware will always produce a crappy game!  but it\'s another story...

In a word...I hope Sony will conceive PS3 with this IDEA in mind :

A powerful and balanced console which will allow developers to focus on game-play rather than fighting with the hardware to understand how to push it...it\'s a waste of time and money and it\'s not good for us gamers.
...I want "revolution" in the Games...not in the way data run from a piece of hardware to another!


And to finish,I wanna apologize to you for some uneducated words I said(it was a stressful week for me) and I\'d finish my speech with a toast to us gamers...""for a better gaming experience in the near future!"":fro:

DOA3 looks better than VF4 arcade...and FV4 on PS2 looks worse than the arcade,with notable jaggies...and isn\'t it a good and reliable comparison?...well...thinking of it again,I should say NO...bacause DOA3 was developed on unfinished hardware...that\'s why I\'m impressed by the graphics capabilities of the XBox...

But VF4 was a port of the Naomi2 hardware.
It was not built from scratch on the PS2. You of all should know that PS2 reqiuers "1337" (I just said that at a lame attempt trying to be funny, the real word is spacific) programming knowledge

We will see SEGAs next game.. Hopefully NOT a port.
SEGAs CEO has said "VF4 is just the beginning"
Btw, I cant beleive you still are using that "Not finished hardware" crap MS though up during the very unimpressive E3, TGS and Gamestock shows.

Btw while we are talking graphics I think SC2 will be the most impressive, its developed on System 246 which is basically the PS2 (I don’t know if it has more main memory though) and therefore it should not be a problem “porting” it to PS2.
I wonder how the other 2 ports will turn out, considering its programmed for PS2 and uses PS2 specific code.

Don\'t get me wrong...I enjoyed J&D and I consider it a good platform but...I was waiting much more...
Textures are well done...but not very detailed...and the water is not beautiful...it\'s an evolution over the water in Crash of PSX! The animations are smooth but I\'m not impressed overall,and the trees? Why are you impressed by the animations of the trees in J&D?...they\'re nice,not impressive...maybe it\'s just me...and I\'ve seen drop in framerate...

I was very impressed by Jak and Daxter.
The drawdistance was the best thing about it. (talking graphics wise)
Maybe you can show me an Xbox game that blows it out of the water?

I hope seven! I don\'t want a J&D 2 with some improvements in graphics with the possibilities to control some other characters,some extra moves and the same game-play(look at crash)...but it\'s what will probably happen...I hope to be wrong though !!!

Jak and Daxter was Naughty Dogs first game on the PS2. Surly the next game will have alot of improvements from the first one.
As Ive said many times before Sony has now a complete libary in the devkits (they are still improving) and some nice dev friendly programs have been released. Sonys own Performance Analyzer 2, which the TimeSplitters 2 developers were talking about (they said it took snapshots of the code and showed there areas where you put to much strain on the hardware ect. they called it a very nice and helpful tool) and VectorC which lets you code C++ code instead of Assamble code when programming the VectorUnits. Should save you alot of time.

Plus Naughty Dog programmer Jason Rubin said in an interview at uk.playstation.com (I cant access the site right now cuz the server is damn slow and its getting late..) that there is a lot to squeeze out from the PS2 still.

Agreed...though a new hardware which is released 1 year and half later should be more powerful...it\'s how technology works...

Ofcouse.. But by how much? You really believe that 3x crap?

You know each reasonable guy have to agree with you...it\'s not the hardware alone which makes the difference,developers do!
...so a crappy developer on the best hardware will always produce a crappy game! but it\'s another story...

So why are you *****ing about it? Complain on the developers, not PS2!
 

In a word...I hope Sony will conceive PS3 with this IDEA in mind :

A powerful and balanced console which will allow developers to focus on game-play rather than fighting with the hardware to understand how to push it...it\'s a waste of time and money and it\'s not good for us gamers.
...I want "revolution" in the Games...not in the way data run from a piece of hardware to another!

Im glad Sony made PS2 the way it is.. Why? They tried something new. Not the same PC architecture that the xbox uses.
The PS2 is the dominant console so the new architecture of the PS2 will become more known. A lot of developers will have worked with the PS2 and understands how it works.
Therefore Sony can make the PS3 based on the PS2 architecture and developers will not have the same kind of difficulties understanding it like they had with PS2.

But there are a few things that they could improve on the PS2..

I don\'t know why people find it so hard to believe that something released over a year after the PS2 can be a little bit better (in terms of hardware). Seriously, if you just admit to it you are not betraying your PS2.

Eye yam we todd did.

[BizioEE]

But VF4 was a port of the Naomi2 hardware.
It was not built from scratch on the PS2. You of all should know that PS2 reqiuers "1337" (I just said that at a lame attempt trying to be funny, the real word is spacific) programming knowledge  

We will see SEGAs next game.. Hopefully NOT a port.
SEGAs CEO has said "VF4 is just the beginning"
Btw, I cant beleive you still are using that "Not finished hardware" crap MS though up during the very unimpressive E3, TGS and Gamestock shows.

The"not finished hardware" issue,as you define it "crap",it\'s simply the truth,and it\'s what happened to PS2 at first...when most of the games looked inferior than the best DC games...
...and there were a lot of people,me included,who\'s been saying for months and months to wait at least two years to see the potential of this "incredible" console...the untapped power...and now you\'re complaining about the first E3 for the XBox ? after 2 years there\'re not games on PS2 which can compete graphically with Halo and DOA3...and people try to find an excuse? bla bla it\'s a port from the arcade,it\'s the first attempt...and what is it DOA3? It\'s a launch game developed on unfinished hardware...why crap? it\'s the truth! Give the XBox the same time we gave to PS2 before talking crap...*Show me on the XBox something that blows J&D out of the water*...after 3 months from Launch? When PS2 couldn\'t even compare to DC at first...
XBox is a complex piece of hardware and needs a lot more time to bu fully maximized...PS2 is not exclusive to this...
 

Btw while we are talking graphics I think SC2 will be the most impressive, its developed on System 246 which is basically the PS2 (I don’t know if it has more main memory though) and therefore it should not be a problem “porting” it to PS2.
I wonder how the other 2 ports will turn out, considering its programmed for PS2 and uses PS2 specific code.

The System 246 has a lot more RAM than PS2 and from what I\'ve seen DOA3 looks still better!

Ofcouse.. But by how much? You really believe that 3x crap?

Well...it\'s difficult to quantify how much a console is more powerful than another,the term "power" is too generic and there\'re a lot of factors to consider...

I think PS2 is 3-4 times more powerful than DC in some areas,and more or less the same in some other...but...looking at the games,when PS2 was released...would you have said that?
It\'s the reason why XBox could be even 3 times more powerful than PS2...and you could not notice it through your eyes! 3 times more powerful,overall,doesn\'t mean that games will look like film...
...the hardware could process the same number of polys with a lot more instructions for poly...proving hypothetically to be 2x more powerful in that area,and you could not notice the 2x factor,because your eyes can\'t measure it!

I was very impressed by Jak and Daxter.
The drawdistance was the best thing about it. (talking graphics wise)

ND talked about a Next Gen Game,next gen graphics and next gen game-play ----> people\'s expectation grew ----> me played J&D ----> me not happy !

Nothing new about game-play,nothing!

I\'m glad for you...if you were impressed by this game!

IMO  I\'ll look at XBox games with the same critical eye...
...I\'ll play Project Ego...and a lot of other games...and then!...only then I\'ll judge...I\'ll give the XBox the time it needs!...as I did with PS2!

So why are you *****ing about it? Complain on the developers, not PS2!

I said XBox has more potential...only this...and I\'m sorry people got into a huff...

Obviously the developers make the difference...and sure great developers will make wonderful things on the XBox...so...why missig the opportunity to play great games on the X?
Shouldn\'t it be better to wait a little more instead of bashing the X like scared kids?

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

Originally posted by PSX_J
Well Bruce did do alot of his movies in the 60\'s or 70\'s. (cant remember when he died) so that might explain the whole disco thing

he died in 73.

as for this game..

add it too the long list of bruce lee shockers.

I don\'t think there is 1 decent bruce lee game.

XBox has more processing power than PS2,more rendering bandwidth,more texture bandwidth,more RAM,better

I do not wish to debate on all the other pointless issue as I\'m enjoying so many PS2 games..

But that statement is definitely WRONG. The x-Box use a unified memory system whereby the 6GB/s of bandwidth and 64MB RAM is shared among texture, sound, program and data. While the PS2 has a DEDICATED 40GB/s of bandwidth for the graphics alone.

In fact for all it\'s processing power, the bandwidth issue and the puny CPU is the X-Box weakest link. That is why Halo only managed a 30fps frame rate. It can process all the data u want but if it can not be transfered quickly enough, it\'s of no use either.

Still considering most games on TV will be rendered at 640x480, the X-Box should be relatively safe(to get decent to good frame rates) as long as it isn\'t push too hard (like trying to achieve a 4XFSAA in a complicated scene).

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by Paul


I do not wish to debate on all the other pointless issue as I\'m enjoying so many PS2 games..

You do not wish to debate on all the other pointless issue because you can\'t:)

In fact for all it\'s processing power, the bandwidth issue and the puny CPU is the X-Box weakest link. That is why Halo only managed a 30fps frame rate.

May you elaborate? It\'s interesting...

But that statement is definitely WRONG. The x-Box use a unified memory system whereby the 6GB/s of bandwidth and 64MB RAM is shared among texture, sound, program and data. While the PS2 has a DEDICATED 40GB/s of bandwidth for the graphics alone.

64MB RAM is shared among texture,sound,etc...but almost everything is compressed in the XBox(for example the Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC) - 6:1) plus the XBox has a built in hard disk...XBox has plenty of RAM to deal with...more than PS2 and GC...

and about bandwidth...you have no idea what you\'re speaking about...

Please let\'s stop talking about specs...you forced me to reply...

I\'ve just said everything above...

me too wanna enjoy games...the only thing I want is great games!

That is why Halo only managed a 30fps frame rate.

im still pissed about that
i swear im gonna go blind playing co-op

Originally posted by mm


im still pissed about that
i swear im gonna go blind playing co-op

are you shure you have not been playing DOA3 with the Nude code on :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The"not finished hardware" issue,as you define it "crap",it\'s simply the truth,and it\'s what happened to PS2 at first...when most of the games looked inferior than the best DC games...

TTT had roughly about 4 month\'s development time (I think on finished hardware). As a result, it was seriously rushed, didn\'t have AA at all. And the buddies at Tecmo did have enough time to make it as good as it looks. Or explain to us why DoA3 is the only game that already uses the vertex-shaders? Or which guy said that DoA3 was technically inpossible on any other next gen console? X-box being 3 to 5 times more powerful? This crap about unfinished kits won\'t get us far.

ND talked about a Next Gen Game,next gen graphics and next gen game-play ----> people\'s expectation grew ----> me played J&D ----> me not happy !

Show me an Xbox game on any console that has so much going on on-screen? You have real time lightning-effects (day/night), you have roughly 13 million polys, heaps of different textures (and the detail, check them again, especially on the houses), the fluid animation, water, draw-distance... it might not be new gameplay, but in terms of technical achievement, this game is not disappointing.

64MB RAM is shared among texture,sound,etc...but almost everything is compressed in the XBox(for example the Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC) - 6:1) plus the XBox has a built in hard disk...XBox has plenty of RAM to deal with...more than PS2 and GC...

Harddisc != RAM. Just think of it like this: You have 64 MB RAM which stores compressed textures, digital sound (ever wonder how much digital surround takes up?), I/O instructions, program code and the framebuffer. Ever read any interviews with developers and asked the question why most launch games don\'t have AA? Because there isn\'t enough bandwidth and memory for it - and don\'t give me those tech articles. The games are showing it. The thing with X-box is, it not only can access the data at 6.4GB/s, it also has to send data back to the RAM. A two way connection could easily split that bandwidth into 3.2GB/s out and 3.2GB/s in. It\'s up to the developer. Ps2 on the other hand has the potential 48 GB/s to burn. That is 10 GB/s (512-bit) for textures (one-way) and 38 GB/s (2048-bit) for framebuffer and other data (two-way). So, don\'t tell any of us that X-box has more bandwidth. And btw: if you thought Ps2 doesn\'t have any compressed textures, you\'re wrong. While the GS can\'t handle compressed images, the EE very well can. It can decompress them on the fly and so the images can also be stored in a compressed state.

BTW: did you notice why J&D is so good in terms of technical achievement? It\'s one of the first games that has got absolutely no loading times. Instead of saving all the textures into the RAM for one scene (== loading time), only the necessary ones are saved there and streamed over. As a result, images are never cached in the main-RAM so it doesn\'t take up memory and are contineously streamed over to the GS where they are displayed. X-box will be able to do this too, but only via harddrive and I am not sure at what rate since the X-box has limited bandwidth to do things like this. I wonder how far developers can get once they get the hang of this...

And to finish,I wanna apologize to you for some uneducated words I said(it was a stressful week for me) and I\'d finish my speech with a toast to us gamers...""for a better gaming experience in the near future!""

That\'s okay. I am used to it that things get heated up quickly anyway. As long as we can continue this debate in a educated way then it\'s no problem.

are you shure you have not been playing DOA3 with the Nude code on

ACK! my secret is out!