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Author Topic: PS2 development - comments from developers  (Read 1856 times)

Offline fastson
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« on: March 03, 2002, 03:44:56 PM »
With so many vivid and passionate debates raging on the specifics of PlayStation 2 development, we decided to get answers straight from the source: the developers themselves. Four outfits agreed to shed light on the subject: BioWare, Criterion Studios, Sony Europe’s Cambridge Studio, and a PS2 developer who shall remain anonymous due to the nature of his work (dubbed "Developer X"). We’ll hear from BioWare’s joint-CEOs Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka, Criterion Studios’ Stephen Lucas (programmer for their PS2 urban hover board title, "Stunt Squad"), and SCEE’s Katie Lea (designer), James Busby (programmer), and Dean Ashton (programmer). Note that the team members we queried are in different stages of PlayStation 2 development and thus have varying degrees of free time to fully elaborate on our questions.

CoreMagazine.com: How long have you been working on PlayStation 2 development? When were you approached and how did that come about?

Criterion: Being owned by Canon, a Japanese company, obviously helps us a great deal in certain areas. Our technologies division, Criterion Technologies, has always been focused on 3D technologies. Naturally, they began talking with Sony some time ago. This resulted in our successful 3D graphics toolset Renderware being developed for PlayStation 2.

Developer X: I’ve been developing for the PlayStation 2 for over a year now. Once the development kit is received, its just a matter of installing the latest compiler and libraries and go.

Katie Lea, SCEE: It was pretty clear that we would be working on PS2 as soon as it was announced. So early project design work started then, game proposals were considered and once we had some information about the actual machine we were able to consider exactly what might be feasible for us to create.

BioWare: Our work on the PS2 thus far has been solely in association with Interplay on MDK2 Armageddon. We’ve had the development systems for a short while and we are starting to make some great progress.

Core: We’ve seen many larger companies consolidate operations (including SCEA, who brought 989 Studios back into the fold) in order to better concentrate on PS2 development. What resources (both financial and staff-wise) do you think need to be pooled together in order to effectively develop for PS2?

Criterion: Criterion has always been a real technology driven company. On the technology side, we have 25 engineers working full time developing new versions of Renderware and new ways to push the hardware in new directions. Resources-wise, we have not had to change to develop for the machine. We have always been into new technology. The machine is hard, that’s great for us. Our engineers are some of the best in the world and they love a challenge!

Developer X: It’s a matter of a structure really. Rather than pull an enormous amount of people together for each project separately, companies have to begin structuring their resources more efficiently. For example, if team A is developing an AI engine they need to communicate and share ideas with team B and team C, incorporate the new ideas and then re-distribute the AI engine. This may seem obvious, but it is a sorry fact that this wasn’t happening in a lot of the larger software companies before PS2.

Katie Lea, SCEE: For development on any new platform you really do need to start with a number of talented R&D people working to create a good foundation of system code and tools that other teams can work up from. This started with the guys in Japan at SCEI, moved on to SCEE’s internal R&D group and then to our studio with the project team itself where we started work on the technologies more specific to our specialized product genre (3rd person action/adventures). Tackling this work has seen us make significant investments in new equipment, development software and staff training to meet with the new platforms challenges. (For example, some of our programming staff have been on a math course to help them get the most from the Emotion Engine). The PS2 title we have in development at SCEE Cambridge will not be a launch product for the US or Europe. It\'ll be a definite second generation title for the system...

BioWare: Developing triple-A titles for any platform takes a lot of development commitment. The PS2 is no different in this regard. We have dedicated engineers who aren’t afraid of working right on the metal, doing a lot of assembly optimization to get the performance we’ve all read about. The same team of programmers responsible for MDK2’s Omen Engine for both Dreamcast and PC will be the people at BioWare squeezing every ounce of performance out of the PS2 for MDK2 Armageddon.

Core: So, would you say that the PS2 almost demands large resources from developers in order to create truly ground-breaking titles? In other words, are the days of tiny start-up development teams gone?

Criterion: Not necessarily. We have achieved some truly stunning results with small teams of six or seven guys working out some ideas. I think a tiny start-up with a great game, and access to a PS2 development kit could just about make it. But they would have to be pretty talented.

Developer X: “Too many cooks spoil the broth” as the old adage goes, what is needed is a core number of highly skilled people. But that’s the case really in any engineering-based field. The companies with the best engineers will produce the most ground-breaking software. Of course, "ground-breaking" isn’t necessary to sell a game, it simply adds to the content.

Katie Lea, SCEE: To create truly ground breaking titles you\'re certainly going to need a good deal of talent and given that the general game-buying public expect more and more from the games they buy, then its inevitable that project team sizes increase in order to deal with this increased complexity. The challenges come from all sides, these days we have to produce games that look graphically outstanding -- this puts a burden on the artists to fulfill this and the programmers to actually display these graphics without sacrificing the gameplay. The gaming public also seems to demand more from a gameplay perspective (particularly if you are looking at the action, adventure, or RPG genres); they want more realistic/intelligent behaving character interactions and more variety to the gameplay itself.

However I think this challenge exists for all developers on all platforms. It really seems to me that its just a product of the position games are in now and is the same as the general public not putting up with obviously primitive special effects in films, even though the film itself might be quite commendable on other levels.

I am quite sure that if we were developing the project we are now on any other next-gen platform our team size would end up being around the same size.
As to whether the days of small start-up development teams are over -- well I think it’s a lot harder for people attempting this these days, simply because of the average expense needed to create a game. To succeed I think you need to have a strong concentration of both talent and luck. Convincing publishers that your game really is great and is going to be the success you claim it is, is hard work and getting them to commit and part with their money even harder.

BioWare: Some games can be done by smaller development teams, but it’s doubtful that there will be many 4-person teams doing triple-A titles in the future. In general, game development is becoming a bigger business. For example, at BioWare we’re working on three titles, and at 90 people we still see the need for some expansion.

[More coming]
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
-Axel Oxenstierna 1648

Offline fastson
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2002, 03:46:05 PM »
Core: In your opinion, is PlayStation 2 "difficult" to develop for? We’ve heard comments from Capcom, Konami, and others noting what they perceive to be as problems associated with development... Were developer expectations too high for PlayStation 2?

Criterion: I’m not sure that developer expectations are ever too high for a new machine. Perhaps it could be said that some consumer expectations have been too high.. PlayStation 2 isn’t just a very, very powerful piece of kit, that power comes from a different way of doing things. You can’t just expect to finish development on say a PC game one day, then come to work and apply those same skills and techniques to develop a PS2 version. You’re just not going to be able to push the machine at all.

Developer X: The PlayStation 2 can be tricky in some areas and surprisingly painless in others. It is a give and take situation really. Developers for the first PlayStation complained that the libraries didn’t let them hit the metal enough, developers for PlayStation 2 are complaining that they have to hit the metal too often. I suppose there’s no pleasing some people. As the PS2’s development libraries improve however I think there will be a lot less complaining going on.

James Busby, SCEE: It is a fallacy to say that PlayStation 2 is difficult to develop for. Certainly the machine has a more complicated architecture than PlayStation, but this complexity means there are many ways in which you can design your game engine to use the power available. Exploring these options means that more time is needed to get to grips with the system before you can really make it work for you, but when you get to that stage, it really does work for you. I think there will be a steady learning curve for most developers on PlayStation 2, and we can expect to see marked improvements with each new generation of software titles.

Dean Ashton, SCEE: It does require a different approach to PlayStation development due to the number of separate processors. I think it\'s fair to say that when we started work on PlayStation titles there were more difficulties due to having limited hardware access (everything had to be accessed through SCEI\'s libraries). With PS2 we don\'t really have those problems, as SCEI has made nearly everything programmable at the hardware level.

BioWare: We think that there are two main factors involved. The first reason is that the technological jump from the original PlayStation to the PS2 is huge! PS teams will need to learn a lot of new skills to utilize the full power of the PS2. We’ve always felt that it would be easier for PC developers than PS to move to PS2 because PC developers have already been working to develop advanced physics, cutting-edge renders and advanced AI. From a philosophical development perspective, PC developers don’t understand how different console games are from the games they normally produce, so this gives them an inherent disadvantage on the PS2. The second reason is the PS2 has an unusual architecture. You’ve got to learn a lot of new tricks to see performance at top quality levels. It’s not just the PS++.

Core: Have you been able to successfully work around the infamous VRAM issue -- that is, PS2’s 4MB of dedicated video memory?

Criterion: If you are really thinking that the 4MB if video memory is a big problem, then you need to re-think the way in which you are using the hardware. The whole system architecture is geared to moving data around as you need it. You can use far more than 4MB of textures in a single frame should you want to do that. Also that memory was designed small for a reason, it makes it very, very fast which you need when you have polygon counts in the tens of millions.

Developer X: I had a few problems at first, treating it too similarly to the original PlayStation or to PC hardware but now I have no problems at all. Most programmers can find clever ways of paging or caching textures to get around this problem.

James Busby, SCEE: PlayStation 2\'s VRAM limits and the machine\'s architecture in general suggests some new ways of thinking about how your game engine should work, and this is something that developers are just starting to realize. Without going into details, we are taking a fresh approach to the issue of texture space on this new console which will pretty much remove any limitations on the quality of textures we can use in our games.

Dean Ashton, SCEE: The thing that some developers seem to be ignoring is the fact that the PS2\'s VRAM is supposed to be used as local cache (with textures being moved into and out of VRAM during the game), not as permanent texture storage.

BioWare: We’re still working on that one -- it is a significant challenge but we’ve got some ideas on how to beat it!

Core: We’ve seen many games that exhibit what is known as ‘jaggies’, a visual effect that stems from PS2 titles running at 60Hz and conventional TVs not being able to redraw high-res images at that speed essentially. On the other hand, other titles, such as Madden 2001, don’t show jaggies at all. Have you been able to mask this effect in your PS2 work?

Criterion: There are actually two different problems here -- flickering which is caused by running at 60Hz and ‘jaggies’ which are caused when you have high contrast edges. There are multiple approaches to how you solve both these problems. We are still experimenting, but do not think this will pose too much of a problem... Some methods require more video memory than others, others cause some different problems (by themselves).

Developer X: A lot of this boils down to the skill of the artists, selection of color palettes, mip-mapped textures etc. From the programming side of things there is polygon anti-aliasing and full-screen anti-aliasing and a few other techniques we can use. We are currently using polygon anti-aliasing to good effect.

James Busby, SCEE: \'Jaggies\' are not a problem specific to PlayStation 2. Any interlaced display will flicker because of the way it fools the eye by displaying different images alternately. This flickering is most evident in areas of high contrast such as the edges of polygons. Most Dreamcast titles also exhibit this problem to some extent, but it has been more obvious on the first generation of PlayStation 2 games and because expectations were so high it was immediately picked up on by the press in particular. The PlayStation 2 does have hardware-level anti-aliasing that developers can exploit if they want but there is a cost - the volume of data their engine can display is likely to be reduced as a result. We don\'t believe this is necessary, as there are other ways to solve the problem. Techniques like mip-mapping that have seen limited use so far on PlayStation 2 (mainly due to the tight time constraints on these first titles) will help reduce \'jaggies\' significantly, and there are ways that you can use the hardware to reduce or eliminate the flicker of the interlaced screen. Most importantly though, you can create your artwork in such a way that you avoid the problem in the first place. We are using a combination of these techniques on our titles to eliminate this problem.

BioWare: We’re got some solid ideas on ridding MDK2 Armageddon of the Jaggies, it is a big priority for us. It’s interesting to consider that future marketing bullet points might include terms like, “contains no Jaggies!”

[More coming]
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
-Axel Oxenstierna 1648

Offline fastson
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2002, 03:47:14 PM »
Core: Have you worked on other consoles previously, such as Dreamcast or PSX? If so, can you compare your experiences as a whole in developing for them as opposed to developing for PlayStation 2? How are the consoles similar? What sets them apart?

Criterion: The two machines [Dreamcast and PlayStation 2] are similar in the sense that you have roughly the same amount of CPU processing power, and the graphics chips have similar drawing functions.. What sets them apart is that the PS2 has all the extra vector units that you can move all your geometry processing and animation onto, freeing up the CPU for physics and AI. Also the PS2 encourages you to keep your data moving round the system, and that makes for more dynamic worlds. If you are uploading textures to video memory each frame anyway then there’s no reason not to use an MPEG movie instead of a static texture.

Katie Lea, SCEE: The Cambridge studio has been part of SCEE for some time now and for this period of time we have worked exclusively on the PlayStation (and now PS2). Prior to this as an independent development house we have worked on many other game platforms. I honestly don’t believe there have been any more problems learning to work on the PS2 compared with any of the other platforms that we have come into contact with.

James Busby, SCEE: Previously I have worked on PlayStation projects (MediEvil and MediEvil 2) and the biggest change is in the amount of work involved in creating a game. PlayStation 2 represents a huge leap in performance over PlayStation and that makes everything you would normally do to make a game that much more involved. More interaction and greater depth is expected from PlayStation 2 titles and that naturally creates a lot of work for programmers. The size of project teams has to grow in order to handle this complexity, and the end result is that if you are not organized in the way you develop your game, you will have problems. This is not an issue specific to PlayStation 2 -- as gaming platforms become more powerful the inevitable result is that the effort put into developing games for them will have to increase.

Dean Ashton, SCEE: As well as working on old 16-bit machines (SNES and Amiga), I\'ve been working on PlayStation titles since 1994. Since the middle of last year I\'ve been working on PS2 though. I\'d say PlayStation was quite tricky to write for, as there were very limited machine resources (RAM, VRAM), and the rendering systems were restricted too (texture warping, for example). We tended to write more assembler on PS1, whereas now we\'re using a combination of C++ and Vector Unit microcode. One of the reasons for the move to C++ is the fact that it makes the development of individual systems much more manageable. And with teams being so much larger now, this is pretty important. There are still parallels with PlayStation though, in that our rendering systems still need low-level attention, it\'s just that it\'s shifted from renderers written in MIPS assembler on PlayStation, to renderers written in VU microcode instead.

Developer X: Speed and a very flexible development environment. The environment is so general and flexible that I could even compile programs on the PS2 itself if I wanted to!

BioWare: We did MDK2 for both Dreamcast and PC -- this was a great opportunity for us as we learned the difference between PC and Console development. It was a real pleasure to work on the Dreamcast. Sega was very good with technical support, and the system had some excellent technical features. In particular, the sound and texture compression were absolutely awesome. PS2 is a whole new beast. As [we] mentioned, we’re going to need to learn a whole bunch of new tricks to really push its performance -- the biggest difference is that it is completely different!

Core: What’s your experience in working with Sony’s TOOL proprietary development kit for PlayStation 2?

Criterion: The TOOL works really nicely as a shared resource over the network. We are really impressed with it. The built-in Web Server is a particularly cool way to administer it. And it comes with an excellent set of documentation, in the same way that a consumer device would. We also think the casing is cool. It’s so cool that we bolt all of systems into a steel casing chained to the floor! We use both Linux and NT, both have their advantages. We use whichever is appropriate.

Developer X: It’s a very well rounded working environment.

James Busby, SCEE: They\'re great. On PlayStation the development kit consisted of a couple of huge circuit boards that you have to physically wedge into your PC, with all the associated hassles that come from doing anything hardware-related with your computer. The new TOOL kits are entirely stand-alone -- plug them into your local network and off you go. No taking the case off your PC -- heaven!. Of course, another cool feature of the kits is that several people can share them across the network, which makes it a lot more practical to give everyone on your project frequent access to a development kit.

Dean Ashton, SCEE: It\'s certainly a lot easier to setup than the old PlayStation development systems. It\'s good how people have a choice about which development environment to use too. Developers can either use the SCEI supplied tools under Linux, or pony up for some middleware solutions for use under Windows 9x/NT (either from SN Systems, or from Metrowerks).The documentation is pretty thorough, and there\'s a reasonable collection of sample programs and conference notes to refer to.

BioWare: We didn’t have a ton of Linux experience on the MDK2 Armageddon team and floundered for a day or two until the MDK2-A Line Producer pointed out he was a Linux kingpin -- this helped an awful lot. Like all development stations, they were a little finicky in the setup stage, but once tweaked to perfection they work marvelously! I have to say it is unquestionably the prettiest development station I’ve ever seen -- it looks really cool -- like a PS2 on steroids!

Core: If you could request that SCEI alter one aspect of the PlayStation 2, either a component, an aspect of the retail unit itself, or something to do with the development kits/process, what would it be? What do you feel, from a developer standpoint, is PlayStation 2’s greatest asset?

Criterion: Next time, could they do a VAIO makeover of the development TOOL, it would be awesome in purple! The greatest asset is flexibility -- people will be finding new ways to push this hardware for years to come.

Developer X: The PlayStation 2 has several great assets; a separate bus and processor for IO and sound operations, and the on-the-fly geometry modification that I mentioned earlier. Its floating point power, if fully utilized is pretty awe-inspiring too. I do wish it had a remote control thrown in however.

James Busby, SCEE: Make the TOOL kits a bit quieter -- the hum of all those little fans can send you mad after a while! As for PlayStation 2\'s greatest asset, I would say the graphics architecture. PlayStation 2\'s hardware is a deliberate trade-off -- limited VRAM space in return for phenomenal rendering speed. You can get round the problem of limited texture space with a bit of creative effort, but if you don\'t have the raw horsepower there isn\'t a lot you can do about that. When other gaming platforms with more conventional hardware have reached their peak performance, PlayStation 2 will still be getting better.

Dean Ashton, SCEE: As an SCEE employee, I guess I should say that I wouldn\'t change anything…(smiles) As far as what PS2\'s greatest asset is, well.. probably the developers working on it. Without decent titles on the way nobody would want to buy the machine. And then I\'d be out of a job!

BioWare: We’d want to see more texture memory -- you can do a lot with polys but combining a lot of textures with a lot of polys is pure magic! We think that the PS2 has two great assets -- the number of polys it can push, and Sony’s marketing machine.

[More coming]
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
-Axel Oxenstierna 1648

Offline fastson
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2002, 03:49:04 PM »
Core: PlayStation 2 is capable of playing titles produced on either CD-ROM or DVD-ROM format. Does DVD have any advantages, aside from offering more space than CDs? Which will you choose generally, and why?

Criterion: Technically, they are really similar. It’s down to the implementation of the software. Some people used to think that aside from storage, DVD gave extra capability, e.g. 5.1 Dolby Digital sound, but now you can have that on CD. We cannot comment right now on whether we are working on a CD or DVD project. You’ll just have to wait and see.

Developer X: I think it is space that is the main issue -- these bigger games we’re beginning to see need more room for their data. A lot of games rely on movies for story telling and the CD-ROM format just isn’t suited to that.

James Busby, SCEE: I think it is generally a space issue. Having a DVD-ROM is good for the machine as it means you can watch your movies on it, but for developers the choice of CD or DVD will depend on how much storage their game requires. PlayStation 2 can reproduce sound and video images with far higher quality than on PlayStation and this will naturally lead to more storage space required for this data. On the other hand, the increased rendering power of the machine will mean that sequences that would have been FMV on PlayStation can now be done in real-time on PlayStation 2, and these real-time sequences will generally require less storage space. The other factor that might affect the choice of format could be \'extras\'. In the same way that DVD movies come with additional material, you could envisage that games could be released on DVD with extras like a "making-of" documentary, interviews with the development team, etc. The DVD-ROM format will open up these new possibilities to developers.

BioWare: We imagine there will be swanky in-game MPEG playback opportunities there. In MDK2 Armageddon all the movies are in-game, so we won’t be using any advanced DVD features aside from the space.


Core Readers: Now that you’ve read what several developers have to say, does this change your perception of PlayStation 2?
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
-Axel Oxenstierna 1648

Offline Bobs_Hardware

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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2002, 05:51:02 PM »
holy ****.. im dont have much time at the moment so i havent read all of that (in fact i just got to about half way through the second reply)

but i take it that those interviews are pretty old, like.. pre October2000..

Offline Ginko
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2002, 08:12:42 PM »
Those are extremely old...and yah, if they squeezed everything the PS2 had for MDK2:A then I\'m seriously unimpressed...The DC version was slightly superior with textures, and the PS2 version had framerate problems...

Most likely do to port, but none the less...

Offline GmanJoe

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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2002, 08:31:18 PM »
I wonder if TOOL is a preview to what PS3 will be. :D

I knew it was mostly whiny programmers dissing the PS2 that gave it a bad press in the early stages of the PS2\'s existance. But now that better programmers have taken over, they\'re seeing the true muscles of the PS2! And I betcha the PS2 will have better looking games than Xbox sooner than I expected.
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Offline Ginko
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2002, 08:35:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GmanJoe
And I betcha the PS2 will have better looking games than Xbox sooner than I expected.


And what makes you think this?  I agree that PS2 will advance as far as graphics go, but don\'t you think the Xbox will advance just as much?

Offline GmanJoe

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2002, 08:42:07 PM »
Old technology. Xbox was made like American cars.

Want power? Make it 10 cylinders with and 8 liter push rod engine!

Besides.....I said so. :p
\"Gee,  I dunno.  If I was a chick, I\'d probably want a kiss (or more) from Durst, too.\"--SineSwiper 9/23/03 (from another forum)
Originally posted by Seed_Of_Evil I must admit that the last pic of her ass will be used in my next masturbation. She\'s hot as hell, one of my

Offline Ginko
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2002, 08:44:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GmanJoe

Besides.....I said so. :p


Oh, then that\'s all you needed to say...;)

Offline seven
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2002, 12:12:50 AM »
Quote
I agree that PS2 will advance as far as graphics go, but don\'t you think the Xbox will advance just as much?


No, hence this reasons:
"The greatest asset is flexibility -- people will be finding new ways to push this hardware for years to come." - Quote by Criterion.[/i]

But I\'m guessing you\'re not a software programmer, so I wouldn\'t expect you to understand. ;)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2002, 12:52:50 AM by seven »

Offline Ginko
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2002, 07:15:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by seven


No, hence this reasons:
"The greatest asset is flexibility -- people will be finding new ways to push this hardware for years to come." - Quote by Criterion.[/i]

But I\'m guessing you\'re not a software programmer, so I wouldn\'t expect you to understand. ;)


Whatever you say, seven...whatever you say...:rolleyes:

Offline GmanJoe

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2002, 08:24:54 AM »
HEY! I thought it was whatever ~I~ said!

You confoozing me!
\"Gee,  I dunno.  If I was a chick, I\'d probably want a kiss (or more) from Durst, too.\"--SineSwiper 9/23/03 (from another forum)
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Offline Ginko
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2002, 08:28:01 AM »
Dammit!!  I forgot...sorry:(

Offline fastson
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PS2 development - comments from developers
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2002, 09:33:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ginko
Those are extremely old...and yah, if they squeezed everything the PS2 had for MDK2:A then I\'m seriously unimpressed...The DC version was slightly superior with textures, and the PS2 version had framerate problems...

Most likely do to port, but none the less...


MDK2 pushes PS2 as far as Tetris pushes my old Pentium II 400MHz..


BioWare really sounds like n00b developers in this article.. All they talk about is the VRAM while the others seem to have overcome this problem.
Lazy ass PC developer ;)
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
-Axel Oxenstierna 1648

 

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