Whew, that was a close one.

Originally posted by shockwaves
Evolution, simplified, is just what bossieman explained.  Some of the species mutates to become better fit for the conditions (that clearly happens here).  Then the ones that don\'t mutate die out, and the ones that do live on (survival of the fittest).  After that, the mutated species reproduces, making the mutation a norm (evolution).  What is there to deny?

The beginning of life has little to do with evolution.  That\'s why many people believe in creationism followed by evolution.  Evolution just shows how things progress and improve.

Again your not proving anything except that bacteria mutates into different versions OF ITSELF.  It doesnt become anything new

Originally posted by Bossieman


Can you give me the Page number or chapter, I will check this up.
Can U please give me this so I can check it up?

I\'ll go look it up, but I will have it for you

Clowd. What is your point? Do you want us too think that a God created the universe and life on this planet?
Well when we clone organs and cells scientists creates life. Has nothing to do with God. Just molecules and atoms. The more we learn about nature the more we can create. We can easily change and create life as we want. we can even clone humans.
Humans can have a pigs hearth and live a normal life. We inject pig cells into the human brain too cure altzeimers and other sicknesses.

Your instincts, your hair on the body, the way you react on light, danger and other things are all caused by evolution.
And evolution is caused by alpha and beta and neutrino rays from universe. Without this rays evolution would never happen.

Actually, your arteries, regardless of what you eat, slowly get more and more clogged.  What you eat just helps to determine how rapidly.

And if we had legs on our head, we\'d just walk upside down.

Evolution provides plenty to explain why worse traits, such as legs on someones head, would never last.

As for heart conditions, many people have bad hearts, etc.  CardioPulminary conditions are the largest killer of adults, I believe.  Maybe we could evolve to have stronger hearts.  This would help us to live longer.

Shockwaves you bring up an excellent pro creationism point.  Why do humans die?  Scientists do not know.  And its not always the heart.  The scientists say for some reason at around 34 the body just starts to die...cell reproduction starts to slow..

What causes the perfect body to start to die?  Sin

As for the bodys arteries clogging,  true,  the body imperfect because of sin,  that is why some are born blind, etc.


Bossieman I want you to believe God created life on earth and the universe.

Your cloning is simply that, cloning.  You cant create a cell by yourself.  You cant create a human by yourself.  I would like to see you take materials from the earth and make a cell.  

Your not \'creating\' life.

EDIT:  If you could create life,  why cant you bring people back from the dead?  Just fix the hole in the lungs and they should be right back on their feet?  No.

At the basis of everything, we are just atoms.  If we learn to manipulate them correctly, there\'s no reason we can\'t create a cell.

If we start to die at 34 because of sin, then why is there such a standard age?  Hell, my grandmother on my dads side was the most religious person in the family, and died at 60 something from cancer.  My grandfather on that side is an atheist, and he is still alive at 98.

And how can some be born blind due to sin?  How could they have sinned before birth?

As for wanting people to believe in creationism, that won\'t happen in this thread.  Especially with how you\'re arguing it.

And there is a difference between creating life from the start and recreating life.  When someone dies, their cells die.  We can\'t bring the same ones back to life, so the same person couldn\'t be brought back to life.

Originally posted by shockwaves
At the basis of everything, we are just atoms.  If we learn to manipulate them correctly, there\'s no reason we can\'t create a cell.

If we start to die at 34 because of sin, then why is there such a standard age?  Hell, my grandmother on my dads side was the most religious person in the family, and died at 60 something from cancer.  My grandfather on that side is an atheist, and he is still alive at 98.

And how can some be born blind due to sin?  How could they have sinned before birth?

As for wanting people to believe in creationism, that won\'t happen in this thread.  Especially with how you\'re arguing it.

And there is a difference between creating life from the start and recreating life.  When someone dies, their cells die.  We can\'t bring the same ones back to life, so the same person couldn\'t be brought back to life.

Sin is passed down to all mankind through Adam and Eve

Dont ask me about the 30-35 age, its just that way,  what if you started to die at 10-15?  

As for you grand mother,  she will be remembered.

Im sorry, how is my argument not wanting you to believe in creationism?  Please tell me so I can stop doing whatever it is im doing (Im not being sarcastic)

I have to go now, but I will reply more later (tomorrow maybe).
I do respect your opinion but I dont agree with you.
But as for mutation and evolution i have proven your wrong. I have proven that evolution happens and I can give you more example.
But for some evolution means one thimg and for another one something completely different.
For you it might not be enough proof to convince you, but is there anything that can convince you that evolution is happening everywhere.

A random change in the DNA and RNA structure caused by alpha, beta and neutrino rays is EVOLUTION. This happens all the time because of the Background radiation so that proves evolution.
We do know that this is happening all the time. So the question should be:
Ok, we know that mutation happens all the time because we can study DNA and see what happens with it when it get hit by lets say a helium core. But is this enough to explain the complicated structure in life?

Originally posted by Clowd
Im sorry, how is my argument not wanting you to believe in creationism?  Please tell me so I can stop doing whatever it is im doing (Im not being sarcastic)

It\'s just that you can\'t hope to change such strong views over a message board in this manner.  It has been tried many times, and never works.  Just leads to arguements and frustration.  And your arguement was also based largely on what you found to be common sense.  You have to remember that if people don\'t believe in such things, they won\'t find any of your arguement to be common sense.  Find hard facts, and sources to back them up.

I was just here to prove that you couldn\'t prove creationism.  I think that has clearly been shown so far.

Originally posted by Clowd


Again your not proving anything except that bacteria mutates into different versions OF ITSELF.  It doesnt become anything new

and how do you define new? when is it new? Is it when we give it another name?
do you see where I\'m getting? if that bacteria changes one time, you don\'t call it new, but what if it changes a 1000 times throughout time? Is it still just the same bacteria?

Originally posted by Bossieman
when we clone organs and cells scientists creates life. Has nothing to do with God.  

well in all honesty, creationists would argue that god created man with the brain power to one day take over where he left off.

Again, evolutionists would argue that the bible commands the creationists to only have one god, and it would be against everything the creationists believe in.

Thus producing the fact that this thread is an endless struggle with both sides believe what they want.  People take one side so strongly that it is impossible to prove the other wrong.

Growing up i have been a catholic.  Now let us pretend that a thread was created here which told me different of what i have been taught all my life. Do you think for one minute that i will give the argument up and agree with an evolutionist?  Of course not!  But now since i have developed a mind of my own, i am among the people who can take parts from one and parts from the other and splice together our own theory.  But when will we find out the truth?  What happens when we die?  What if that is it, there isnt anymore?  I have raised those questions to my parents, all they reply with is, you werent taught to tihnk that, so therefore you already have a reason you shouldnt be discussing this topic.  I think it may scare them more than any of us.  To be wrong after all of the preaching.

Why do you guys even bother. I mean, come on: "What causes the perfect body to start to die? Sin" and "how did dinosaurs get on the ark? they didnt. thats when they went exticnt, not an asteroid"... give me a break.

Originally posted by square_marker
What happens when we die?  What if that is it, there isnt anymore?  I have raised those questions to my parents, all they reply with is, you werent taught to tihnk that, so therefore you already have a reason you shouldnt be discussing this topic.  I think it may scare them more than any of us.  To be wrong after all of the preaching.

How about this.  When I die, if I go to Hell or Heaven or whatever, I\'ll come back and tell you about it.  If you don\'t hear from me, then that means neither exists, and I simply died.

Originally posted by Clowd


How can you explain moses parting the red sea?  

The parting of the red sea could have easily been over exagerated like many other bible stories. For example..high and low tide..low tide could have been the "parting"

Chariots on a ship? Im sorry but I dont remember the Egyptian war machine using ships to transport chariots...

So you were there? Hmm..you are one old mofo..

Clowd.. I\'m still waiting for my answer. Know, that nothing you say afterwards will hold so much as a drop of credibility until you can prove that your version of the bible was written directly by god\'s hand and unchanged through the millenia. Prove that the bible hasn\'t been altered by man\'s hand. I dare you.

In fact, I\'ll give you an easy out... Simply find a traslation of the Dead Sea scrolls (The oldest known biblical documentation, dating back some 200 years AD) and compair it to your version. If they are verbatium in their messages and their meaning.. then I\'ll back off.

Until you do, nothing you say which correseponds to the bible can be taken even remotely seriously. 100 years of science has given us computers, modern medicine, telephones, automobiles, space travel.. ect. In 4000 years, religeon has given us: Terroism, Dictators, Holy Wars, and little else aside from spiritual complacency and perhaps the "fear of god" which keeps some people in check.

The burden of proof is on YOUR shoulders.

For the record, I do believe in god. I am an unorthadox Roman Catholic, but I cannot swallow the pure falsehoods that my church tries to feed me. I believe there is both a place for god and science, and until we have a complete and comprehensive understanding of god, there is always going to be mystery surrounding the issue. Until that time my beliefs will remain as such.. MY beliefs.. and are not to be pushed on other people.. expecially when I lack proof to back them up.