This is the kind of world we live in.

^^^^

IAWTP

My parents bought my brother and I a whole book stand full of bible story books. I had to go to sunday school from a very early age. And even with a moderate break through a good chunk of grade school, I actually won an award in the year just before high school. I got a bible book and a $20 voucher to dymocs . I know the bible all too well. That\'s whay I\'m saying what I\'m saying now.

Let\'s pick on one passage that\'s irrelevant today. From book, chapter and verse that I\'ve appropriately forgotten: "Wives, submit to your husband". See what I\'m takling about now? Eaqual rights for men and women is something that people presumably support and yet they cling to a vehemently sexist statement like that. That\'s just stupid.

Not to mention the bibles views on homosexuality.

Originally posted by luckee


No.

Even the things I can quickly remember off the top of my head to be good are easily out numbered by the bad I see everyday.

Like today, some christians are at my door trying to sell religion. Do you know I was quite polite in telling them I was not interested 3 times. They still would STFU, so I told them I was now closing the door. Why does this prissy bitch and her friends continue to knock on my door?

So I called the cops.


*edit* funny thing is, they werent rude persay\'...but yet still rude if that makes any sense.

Well, if that’s the case, then perhaps you should join the church and help turn things around. If you think the church is so bad, perhaps your efforts could help the church in becoming a more positive outreach.

There are thousands of people from around the world that would say they are associated with the church and that are going out of their way to help the needy and such. I for one have spent many weekends in the poverty level districts here in my city and have found that it truly is more blessed to give than it is to receive.

The church is full of sinners my friend, but I can’t think of a better place for them to be.


Oh, and those people at your door were more than likely Jehovas Witness, not “Christians” persay.

Originally posted by Avatarr
^^^^

IAWTP

My parents bought my brother and I a whole book stand full of bible story books. I had to go to sunday school from a very early age. And even with a moderate break through a good chunk of grade school, I actually won an award in the year just before high school. I got a bible book and a $20 voucher to dymocs . I know the bible all too well. That\'s whay I\'m saying what I\'m saying now.

Let\'s pick on one passage that\'s irrelevant today. From book, chapter and verse that I\'ve appropriately forgotten: "Wives, submit to your husband". See what I\'m takling about now? Eaqual rights for men and women is something that people presumably support and yet they cling to a vehemently sexist statement like that. That\'s just stupid.

Its statements like that that led me to believe that you have never read the Bible in its entirety. The statement you made of “wives, submit to your husbands” is also succeeded by the statement “men, love your wives as Christ loved the church”. This statement is the true meat of those two considering that Christ died for the church, we as husbands should be willing to lay down our lives for our wives. This is not only in context to our physical life but our social and personal lives thus giving ourselves entirely to our wives. This then is requested of the wife to submit to the husband thus allowing a stronger bond as they both commit to one another.

Before you take one verse from the Bible and attempt to analyze it, try to become more knowledgeable of the other verses that pertain to the same topic.

Also, before I step down from my podium, did you know that no where in the Bible are woman commanded to love their husbands? Yet men are commanded to love their wives by laying their lives down for them. Interesting thought.

Yay to the theological academic. Tell that to the women of our past. Tell that to wives of abusive men who use the single line to justify their actions. (oh, and I\'m purdy sure you\'d tell that to your wife, if you got one) Whatever rationalisation you put into this, you offer no comfort to those who have suffered because of this passage. It is not practical.

But while we\'re being academic, lets look at this from a more cynical perspective. Now let us assume that these husbands adopt your interpretation of self sacrifice. Yet the term self sacrifice is far too broad to determine any kind of specific action. In fact, self sacrifice could be interpreted as "disciplining your wife even if it hurts you to do so". The "request to the wives", is still to submit to their husbands. Do wives submit to that?

Further, the wording firmly places the authority in the hands of the husband. The husband is to decide what is in the best interests of the wife. In life or death situatoins, the wording is clear cut, but try to apply that to every day situatoins. What is in the best interests of the wife is still decided by the husband. The "request to the wives", is still to submit to their husbands.

If The Bible\'s message was simply that of mutual love and sacrifice, why didn\'t it set eaqual terms for both men and women?

I won’t ask you to understand what you cannot. As I see it your view alone dictates a pessimistic approach on what the Bible reads. Until you have experienced what I have in the wonderful marriage I have with my wife and the fact that her and my own beliefs have led us to follow what the Bible says you will never know the joy that I have. Say what you will, but know this, what you have to say has been said before. And all those that would agree with you have one thing in common; they have never witnessed a marriage in which submission was the basis for unity. As both follow the truths found in the Bible, both will find harmony. I have found it with my wife. And I wouldn’t trade what we have with each other for the world.

So when the academic persuit of testing conjecture doesn\'t suit, you switch to propaganda mode. Look sweetcheeks, its good that you\'ve settled into workable system, but let me be so bold as to say it is fake. One party is less of a human being because she is superceeded by the other. All for the fact that she is the female "component" of the relationship.

Not all who would agree with me haven\'t seen this sort of thing before. It is because they have seen this sort of thing that they agree.

Originally posted by Avatarr
So when the academic persuit of testing conjecture doesn\'t suit, you switch to propaganda mode. Look sweetcheeks, its good that you\'ve settled into workable system, but let me be so bold as to say it is fake. One party is less of a human being because she is superceeded by the other. All for the fact that she is the female "component" of the relationship.

Not all who would agree with me haven\'t seen this sort of thing before. It is because they have seen this sort of thing that they agree.

I won’t ask you to understand what you cannot. As I see it your view alone dictates a pessimistic approach on what the Bible reads.

Sorry, it just seemed fitting to repeat myself in this. I would say more but I can see that you are bent on discrediting what has worked for me and my wife. I’m sorry if what I believe makes you so angry.

As I said before, what you have to say has been said before. Even today it holds no ground in what I will have for my household.

I\'m sorry of my little speech seemed a bit firely to you. Since we  have taken the extreme ends of this particular stick, I thought it fitting to match your rhetoric in the other direction. Rest assured, this little tiff is mostly academic for me. And unlike the me of the past, I would never dismiss anyone so hastily without hearing their entire story. Please, if you would indulge me......

Originally posted by Avatarr
I\'m sorry of my little speech seemed a bit firely to you. Since we  have taken the extreme ends of this particular stick, I thought it fitting to match your rhetoric in the other direction. Rest assured, this little tiff is mostly academic for me. And unlike the me of the past, I would never dismiss anyone so hastily without hearing their entire story. Please, if you would indulge me......

In this instance my friend there is a deeper subject to be had. The simple logistics of husbandry and the submission of a wife are found under the scope of a larger plan. The knowledge of ones place in the household is not enough. One must have faith and the understanding of Christ and the simple fact that he died to bring us salvation from the sin nature of humanity. I wish to expound on this but I see that you might only be prepared for an argument. Your heart is not right. When I was in your position in life I too had many qualms with the real basis of Christianity. I also claimed many fights and arguments. I learned however that I could not deter those that had made a real commitment to Christ. When the time is right you will understand all that I have said here. I count all that I have gained here on earth a loss If it were gained from outside the covering of the one true savior. My wife and I found each other under that same covering. She and I both made the conscience decision to follow the life we live today. Saying she is a mere puppet of mine simply contradicts your desire for equal rights as my wife decided of her own free will to marry me. She is no slave. She is free to do as she pleases. She does just that by submitting to me as I have given my life entirely to her. I do not punish her for things she does wrong. In fact I love on her the most during those time. Anger stirs up wrath, but a soft and gentle word turns away wrath. Learning this has brought my wife and I into some awesome conversations when either one of us makes a mistake or hurts one or the other. I hope that in some manner you can understand what I am saying. There is always going to be problems in every marriage. We are only human. But I will say that I love my wife and she loves me. And in the end my friend, that is all that counts.

Please understand I had that "pleasurable" expereince of "knowing" Christ in my blind, pre-teen to early teen days. I understand that Christians belive in the inherent evil within mankind, ever since Adam disobayed His Mightlyness in The Garden of Eden. I understand that Christians belive His Mightyness, in His eternal love, sent His only son to take "serve the sentence" for humanity. (now there\'s a niec little story to tell hte kids) I bought it with my heart, I then gave it back for what many consider to be the truth.

From what I can remember, what counts in the end is your love and commitment to Christ, not each other. :P Your position on that is indicative of your deviatoin from "The Good Book". And it shows: What you are describing to me is a well balanced, modern relationship where both parties have EAQUAL importance. Submission is indeed the basis of your unity, but you\'re both submitting to each other (not just the wife to the husband). That\'s nice, cute and takes a bit of time to derive from the statement we\'re arguing about.

That statement is of course, this:

“wives, submit to your husbands” is also succeeded by the statement “men, love your wives as Christ loved the church”.

Let us say that you are applying this statement to your situation. And you have decided that to love your wife in the same way that Christ loved The Church, you need to submit to her as much as she does to you. And because of this, you therefore deem the statement to be fair to both men and women. But to successfully argue your case, you must apply it to every single situation! By simple common sense, you have to accept that the latter portion of the statement can be interpreted in different ways! Unlike the former part, which is a clear instruction for wives to submit to their husbands!

It would probably be easier for you to see this if you simply concentrate on symantics. I ask you to indulge me again.

I just got back from the front lobby of my work place. I was called up front only to find my beautiful wife and my lovely daughter standing there with a red rose and a simple balloon that says, “we love you”. She had it specially made to say that considering that I have become a father and this is the first Valentines day my daughter will spend with me. God is so good. As for you Avy, I am no longer going to indulge you in this game you wish to play. Please accept my apologies for not continuing but as I said before, your heart is not in the right place for you to understand. But trust me, I will hold you in my prayers in hopes that God will soften your spirit to the truth.

Originally posted by project86
Well, if that’s the case, then perhaps you should join the church and help turn things around. If you think the church is so bad, perhaps your efforts could help the church in becoming a more positive outreach.

There are thousands of people from around the world that would say they are associated with the church and that are going out of their way to help the needy and such. I for one have spent many weekends in the poverty level districts here in my city and have found that it truly is more blessed to give than it is to receive.

The church is full of sinners my friend, but I can’t think of a better place for them to be.


Oh, and those people at your door were more than likely Jehovas Witness, not “Christians” persay.

Like I told them..no thanx. I\'ll pass.

And yes, we have door to door christians peddling around here as well as the hova\'s for which they were not.

Originally posted by luckee



Like I told them..no thanx. I\'ll pass.

And yes, we have door to door christians peddling around here as well as the hova\'s for which they were not.

So if you have no desire to help the church become better, then why do you ridicule it? It seems easy to sit back and point a finger at those that are doing the wrong things but getting off you butt to do something about it, well I guess that just takes too much effort eh?

Anything that doesnt intrest me is too much effort. I ridicule b/c of the wrong, so be it, I am allowed my opinions. I dont need a church taking money from me when I need more of it anyway.

Once again, why would I want to get off my butt and do something about something I have no intrest in?