Iraq: A lose/lose situation

As is becoming apparent, the people of Iraq don\'t want democracy - actually each group/sect wants completely different things.  Some an Islamic state, some a return of the Bathists...  

There are those that said we should never have gone in to Iraq and it was all about oil.  If that is the case why are gas prices going through the roof?  There are some that said it was to liberate the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator - its been done, but at what price?  The country is on the verge of civil war due to the power vacuum.  I don\'t think anyone can disagree that Iraq is a better place without Saddam, but how long will it take for things to stabalize if they ever do?

We will soon hit the 1000 mark for American deaths in Iraq and I wouldn\'t be surprised to see it hit 10000 before we eventually leave.  Our policy of Iraqi feelings first and American safety second is wrong.  The people already hate us and their numbers grow daily.  Some of what Kennedy  :rolleyes:  said is true, though he is one to speak about credibility... This is turning into a Vietnam in the sense that the Iraqi\'s who want freedom don\'t want to work for it - they want the US to do all the work, the fighting and the dying.

Sunni\'s are killing Americans north of Baghdad and the Shiites are rioting in Baghdad and the southern portion of the country.  This 30 year old nutbag cleric claims to be a decendant of Mohammed and holes up in the holiest shrine Iraq - we know where he is, yet do nothing.  

We can\'t leave and the rest of the world for the most part doesn\'t seem to want to do anything tangible to help.  One would think that the western world would put aside their differences and come together to stabilize Iraq and stop playing the game of political one-up-manship.

The western democracies are cooperating in Afghanistan and things are looking brighter there.  The Taliban is gone and the Afghans are enthused and motived to better themselves and their country.  

This whole post sounds like I have reversed my opinion on the war in general, but I haven\'t.  Saddam needed to go and the UN wasn\'t willing to do it.  Is this situation any one persons fault?  No... but there is plenty of blame to go around:

Saddam for obvious reasons.
The UN for not enforcing its own resolutions.
Bill Clinton (and administration) for not being tough enough to stand up to Saddam.
GWB (and administration) for not having planned the post war strategy out.

Is John Kerry going to solve this headache?  You have to be kidding...  In all actuality I don\'t think anyone that is currently running has the ability to do so.  I think the only solution is a long occupation in an openly hostile country.

Very awesome post... I agree with you 100% from every single aspect.

I agree with much of what you wrote regarding the general situation in Iraq right now.  However, I disagree with your assumption that John Kerry would be a poor choice to solve the problem.

It seems that lack of international assistance in pacifying / rebuilding Iraq is one of the major problems.  Perhaps other foreign governments would be more willing to cooperate in that task if they were asked by an American administration that was not perceived as creating the problem in the first place.  I think Kerry would receive a lot more assistance from the world\'s governments that Bush has.  His attitude of "we\'ll do whatever we want whether you like it or not" has burned many bridges.

I disagree - I think Bush could pacify our European allies if he truly wanted to.  The problem is I don\'t think he does - yet.  I really don\'t see Kerry winning in November - I don\'t know anything that you don\'t - it is just a hunch.  

The thing I worry about is if we do get international support - what is to say one of our allies gets bombed again and decides to pull out of Iraq (ie. Spain).  I am sure some in Europe are gloating over the fact things are starting to look bad in Iraq and are of the mindset "they made their own bed, now they must lay in it".  Political powerplays are not what is needed now in the international community.  A situation such as this could easily spill over into other countries such as Iran who has a heavy Shiite population.  

I am not saying things that people don\'t already know.  We tried to help these people and capture a madman.  We definitely succeeded in one objective - but have failed in another.  They don\'t want our help.

I think the White House knows this. Why else would they stick with the June 30 date to turn power over? The people are ready to go to civil war with some many factions with armies.

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excellent post giga,..i agree with most of your post except for some concerning saddam..

the un for not enforcing it\'s own resolutions--i disagree the u.s. can\'t go around policing the world..the u.s. took on iraq for personal reasons (bush) and the american people wanted some action after 911,,..and those in the whitehouse thought it would be a cake walk..

i\'ve already stated the fact that what\'s done is done..the iraq\'s just need to let the u.s. rebulid their country & get out..but the u.s. already burned their bridges imo..bush was incredibly arrogant up to the point of war..he acted like saddam had 10 nukes pointed at america and basicly said f.u.to the international community...yet they say that the hand over of power will resume on june 30...i hope that is not americas way of bailing out...i don\'t think it is..they have no control over the area...even with their high tech weaponry,..the enemy is still succeeding in pulling off aggressive attacks..

trust the american public is not going to be able to stomach huge losses of american lives,..but they\'ll have to,.because there\'s no way the u.s. can leave iraq in the situation it\'s in...and just think for a minute..if foreign soldiers came into the u.s. forcing their policies on you, you\'d fight them back wouldn\'t you?

And we lost another 12 today. When will we leave?

I was against the war
I am against our occupation, its time to go.
I have no real answers, but Im sure the strong will survive in iraq no matter who it is. Even we had to go through a civil war, maybe they have to as well. They are like the 2nd or 3rd largest oil producing country no? Money wont be an issue, just a matter of how and when things get done. We need to leave tho. We have already more than surpassed the death toll of servicemen vs the 1st year of vietnam. Someone did some math on another site  we are discussing this on and if this drags out as long as \'nam, we will loose much, much more thaan the 60k we lost then.

Originally posted by Alliswell
People here have said "Any rational person would want Saddam Hussein removed from power." That is being nearsighted. Millions of people, including Chris Matthews, fear what could come out of this war with Iraq. The events of September 11th were over a few cruise missiles launched on Afghanistan. What do you think this will create? Some guy, forgot his name, was on world news tonight yesterday saying, "If this war drags out, it could create 100 Bin Ladens." It has already created thousands of suicide bombers and increased the hate of America from the Muslim world....


...What I see happening is that U.S./British forces will enter Iraq, and they may take control, but their will be fighting everyday. There will be no peace in the city. Even if they somehow get a government in there, there will be suicide bombings, assassinations and other things that are happening in Afghanistan as we speek. I also see the U.S. attacking other Middle East countries for helping Iraq or some other eason, they may destroy other middle east countries, but they will never fully conqueor them as there will always be fighting there. America will get stuck over there, with tension rising every day. Hijacking of Airplanes will pick up (They already are.) I remember some years ago when everytime you turned around some plane had got hijacked. Those days may come back. Suicide bombers most likely will come to America. Things will happen that will make 9-11 look like nothing. Anti-AMerica/Christian feelings will be stronger then ever in the middle east, whcih will contribute to the bloodshed  ......  

.....I see this only getting worst in the months/years to come. The fairly tale story of Iraq becoming Democratic and all its problems gone are just that, a fairy tale.
 

I just hope the find a solution to the constant killings... but it may be near impossible.  Just like one said,  lose lose situation.... Saddam was a guy who ruled with an iron fist,  killing off those who dared rise against him,  but,  you get rid of him and what do you get?  More violence....how do you win?  I wish somebody knew,  and right now,  I don\'t think anybody does know....it just may be impossible for humans...

I wrote that "its a dream to think of Iraq as a Democratic nation" quote to show how foolish it was of Bush to try it,  but now,  since they are there,  I only hope that they can do something about the bloodshed...

[clips]

everybody already knows i was against the war,..and i\'m sorry but the bad news will always outshine the good..because their is very little "good progress" goin\' on..the u.s. wants to bring in this muslim shiite that\'s holed up in southern iraq but are afraid to arrest him for fear of it may spark some type of retaliation?..wtf is going on now?

none of this would be happening if we didn\'t go to war in the first place. i highly doubt that by now saddam would have had any wmd\'s even to this day...since saddam is gone you have like at least 3 tribes struggling for power,..and each group has a strong following of supporters in them with weapons...the solution?.send more soldiers?..maybe..it seems we don\'t have enough their to control the situation,..i think early on in the war one of the generals requested something like at least 500,000 to 700,000 troops to secure iraq..that\'s the only solution i see to the u.s. gaining any sort of control.

[clips]

i\'ve been doing a little research on this moktada al-sadr,..it seems the u.s. closed down his newspaper stating..it was inciting violence & false reporting..kind of ironic how the u.s. prides itself on freedom of speech yet it shuts down this newspaper that most shiites hold symbolic to them..which led to protests then the viloence that we see today..i don\'t feel that\'s the sole reason for the violence..bit i feel it\'s a part of it.

to me it just shows to a certain extent that the u.s. is losing ground when it comes to solidifying relationships between the iraq\'s and the u.s. i feel most iraqs know why the u.s. are there regardless of how they feel or felt..they must know that the u.s. is there to help them..by the u.s. telling them to rejoice you have freedom of speech or whatever,..then turn around & shut down one of their media is contradictive of the occupation itself..

who knows what else the u.s. is doing behind closed doors...i\'m not saying it\'s bad or good,,i know the u.s. is trying to have the iraq\'s on their side,..but taking stuff away from them and depriving them of certain freedoms (newspaper,media) regardless of what it states about the u.s. can only work against them..

Originally posted by clips
i\'ve been doing a little research on this moktada al-sadr,..it seems the u.s. closed down his newspaper stating..it was inciting violence & false reporting..kind of ironic how the u.s. prides itself on freedom of speech yet it shuts down this newspaper that most shiites hold symbolic to them..which led to protests then the viloence that we see today..i don\'t feel that\'s the sole reason for the violence..bit i feel it\'s a part of it.

You are kidding right?  This guy has been spouting anti US rhetoric since he returned from exile in Iran (of all places).  He wouldn\'t have even been allowed to return if it wasn\'t for the US which I find ironic.  Tehran indoctrinated him well it seems.

Secondly, an arrest warrant was issued for him because of his involvement in the assasination of another Shiite cleric (mighty holy of him don\'t you think?) - there are also reports that he had a pregnant woman gunned down because she "sped" past his home on the way to deliver.  :rolleyes:

All in all, this guy is a common thug and in bed with Iran.  His agenda is to set up an Islamic state just like Iran without any secularism what so ever.  Also, he is opposed to any constitution in Iraq that doesn\'t involve dominance of Shiites in the government.  How can any entity work with someone like this?  They can\'t.  Even other Shiites (75% in a recent poll) oppose his views.

Iraq is a mess right now, and as the June 30th deadline gets closer more violence is bound to happen as groups compete for power in what will become the "new" Iraq.

This guy is a Saint :rolleyes:

He might want to get his teeth cleaned.

[clips]

yea..i forgot that the sadr cat was wanted for the murder of another...don\'t get me wrong like i\'ve said all along all those tribes just need to sit back let the u.s. rebulid thier country...and everthing will be fine..even tho iwas against the war when i see images of them parading with guns in the air..i\'m like wtf? just chill the f**k out & let a respectable gov\'t be established where all tribes can have a say..

i know it may seem like i\'m back & forth when it comes to the war..but like i said earlier..what\'s done is done..stop fighting and acting like f**kin\' a$$holes & the country will be handed back over to you faster than they know..yea i was against the war..but let\'s be real,.. would these cats be holdin up guns & poppin shit if saddam was in power?..i don\'t think so..saddam would just lobe a couple of missles their way & shut\'em down..

IMHO we should just pull all of our forces out and let tem fend for themselves and see if they last that long......  too many soldiers have died.....this is becoming Vietnam again!

Originally posted by KillaX
IMHO we should just pull all of our forces out and let tem fend for themselves and see if they last that long......  too many soldiers have died.....this is becoming Vietnam again!

BINGO!