How to win the battle for hearts & minds…errr not like this

US acts after Iraq prisoner abuse

A US military investigation has recommended disciplinary action against several of its officers for the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops.
Brigadier General Janice Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.

The officers have already been suspended from duty.

A US TV channel showed pictures of US soldiers humiliating naked hooded prisoners at Baghdad\'s Abu Ghraib jail.


CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures showing a wide range of maltreatment. Taken by US troops, many of the pictures from Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, show American troops watching in apparent approval.

The US military says it is appalled by the behaviour of its soldiers, but insists this is an isolated case.

However, the fact that Americans may have humiliated Iraqis in the very prison where Saddam Hussein\'s regime tortured inmates will be badly received not only in Iraq, but across the region, says the BBC\'s Ian Pannell in Washington

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672117.stm

Yup...Sure looks like we are fighting the good fight to rebuild the country :rolleyes:


It Now looks like one of the soldiers facing court martial has come out and said

“we didn’t receive training in the handling of prisoners !”
 

:rolleyes:

Like staking your prisoners in a naked pyramid is ok :rolleyes:

****Update****

The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year.

The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison have shocked the US army.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can\'t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can\'t ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

Gen Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. "That soldier said: \'There are some things going on here that I can\'t live with\'."

The inquiry had centred on the 800th Brigade which is based in Uniondale, New York.

The US army confirmed that the general in charge of Abu Ghraib jail is facing disciplinary measures and that six low-ranking soldiers have been charged with abusing and sexually humiliating detainees.

Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability.

A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.

Example of one of the released pictures.

Apparently there are 12 RELEASED pictures but according to newreports  on the BBC and other sources... many more have been held back due to their graphic nature.

Sad news to hear.  That pic doesn\'t tell me anything at all but from the sounds of the article the soldiers should be reprimanded.

That was the only picture i could of posted here (due to nudeity).

The others Feature

Naked Iraqi prisoner(s) being "taunted" by Male & Female Soldiers and a sexual manner.

So it doesn\'t take a rocket Scientist to work out that in some of the pictures…

• Naked Muslim(s)

+

• Female Western Soilder

+

• Sexual nature of the photographs

= will be like pouring liquid paraffin on a bonfire to the Muslim world.

From the reports I have both read and watched (on TV) this news story missed todays issues of the leading Muslim papers due to the time difference when the show went out on CBS in America.

I knew this topic would pop up here...  Frankly this is nothing worse than fraternity hazing.  I found it humerous - making them get in a human pyramid!?!  At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera - funny how this is making more of a stir than the Italian hostage that was killed on camera.  Some people need to get a sense of humor.  The only "graphic" nature was the nudity - I like how they make it sound like we were drilling their hands with a Dewalt power drill.

Should the soldiers who did this be disciplined?  Absolutely.  Is the press making way too big of an issue over this?  Definitely.

As for putting the prisoners in Saddams old jails - I think it poetic justice considering most of these are probably ex Saddam henchmen who sent people to those "torture chambers".

Originally posted by GigaShadow
At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera - funny how this is making more of a stir than the Italian hostage that was killed on camera.

The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.

The actions that our forces take shape the rebuilding of the country, so just say...

"At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera "

Excuses the actions and makes us NO BETTER THAN the insurgence fighters that killed the Italian hostage.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
The only "graphic" nature was the nudity

So the stacking of naked captives with soldiers assuming sexual posies isn’t graphic…

Are you willing to put that theory to the test post something like that in Off Topic… Good Luck with that :rolleyes

Originally posted by GigaShadow
I like how they make it sound like we were drilling their hands with a Dewalt power drill.

You do rrealise that physiological torture is just as bad as physical torture. remember what we are seeing in these pictures is only the half of it.

We don\'t know what they did to force the captives to “poise” for these photographs.      

Originally posted by GigaShadow
Should the soldiers who did this be disciplined? Absolutely. Is the press making way to big of an issue over this? Definitely.

Glad we agree on on thing...But the important point is that some of the people involved are Civilian security operatives (employees of TITAN), and as a result may escape prosecution.

Due to the reason that what they did might be against American Law (mistreatment of prisoners) they can escape due to the fact that there is no such law to prosecute them in Iraqi law (which is as we speak is still to be drafted).

How on earth do you court martial a private contractor.
 

Originally posted by GigaShadow
As for putting the prisoners in Saddams old jails - I think it poetic justice considering most of these are probably ex Saddam henchmen who sent people to those "torture chambers".

Altough most of the prisoners are "suspected" Insurgence fighters, the fact is that most of the prisoners are members of the former Iraqi Army (captured during the invasion).

Many have not be put through a trail or have they had evidence presented against them (so some... and I do say Some might be innocent).

Originally posted by ooseven
The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.

If you really equate the pranks of college age kids with the torture and murder performed by a dictator then there is no hope for you.


Lambda Lambda Lambda = Third Reich?

so forcing captives to strip for your amusment = college prank ?

ok nice one

Esp.. when you consider the captives are Muslims and this act go\'s against everything the value...

i mean how did they persuade them to do it.

Hold a Keg party ? :rolleyes:

Slip Drugs into their Drinks ? :rolleyes:

Say to them they would spread gossip about them about College ? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ooseven
The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.

The actions that our forces take shape the rebuilding of the country, so just say...

"At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera "

Excuses the actions and makes us NO BETTER THAN the insurgence fighters that killed the Italian hostage.

Let us be frank about this whole issue and our popularity in Iraq or lack there of.  In a recent Gallup poll 6 out 10 Iraqi\'s want us to leave the country in the next 3 months, yet 7 out of 10 feel we haven\'t done enough to secure the country.  Roughly the same number say they won\'t assist coalition troops for fear of reprisals from fellow Iraqi\'s.  What is the point of all of this?  The Iraqi\'s have too high of expectations especially since they aren\'t willing to lift a finger to assist in the "security" of their country.

Again, the media is making a big deal over nothing.  CBS (and Dan Rather) are very anti Bush and were more than happy to publicize reports of abuse, but do they realize by making a mountain out of this molehill, they are putting US and British soldiers lives in jeopardy by inflaming an already tense situation?  

Originally posted by ooseven

So the stacking of naked captives with soldiers assuming sexual posies isn’t graphic…

Are you willing to put that theory to the test post something like that in Off Topic… Good Luck with that :rolleyes

You do rrealise that physiological torture is just as bad as physical torture. remember what we are seeing in these pictures is only the half of it.

We don\'t know what they did to force the captives to “poise” for these photographs.

     
The key word here is "assuming".  They weren\'t commiting sexual acts.  I agree it is wrong, but it is totally blown out of proportion.  These people cry abuse, yet have commited some of the worse atrocities in modern times.  Physical torture is much worse IMO, while both can leave perminant damage - the stuff shown in those pictures is not of that nature.  As for the stuff we didn\'t see?  Making them listen to loud music?  You think that is torture?  

A few bad apples cause this much uproar from the liberal left - amazing.  Maybe you should read about the Bravo Two Zero Mission conducted by the Australian SAS during the 1st Gulf War and see how the Iraqi\'s treated their prisoners.  It makes this current issue same pale in comparison.

Originally posted by ooseven
so forcing captives to strip for your amusment = college prank ?

ok nice one

Esp.. when you consider the captives are Muslims and this act go\'s against everything the value...

i mean how did they persuade them to do it.

Hold a Keg party ? :rolleyes:

Slip Drugs into their Drinks ? :rolleyes:

Say to them they would spread gossip about them about College ? :rolleyes:

When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.

Originally posted by GigaShadow

Again, the media is making a big deal over nothing.  CBS (and Dan Rather) are very anti Bush and were more than happy to publicize reports of abuse, but do they realize by making a mountain out of this molehill, they are putting US and British soldiers lives in jeopardy by inflaming an already tense situation?  
. [/B]

The problem is CBS isn\'t the only source of this incident and according to the many sources over here in the UK there is more to come (it isn’t the only at this one Prison to have such “problems”).

The REAL problem is how the Arab world views these pictures and how they REACT.

Yes your right this story can put the lives of the Front line troops both UK and US in jeopardy, but the real culprits are the people who took the pictures in the first place and what so ironic is you fail to see that they will probably never suffer the REAL consequences.    

Are they going to be in the Physical Firing line ?…
NO most likely they are on their way out of Iraq to face an enquiry or even questioning (soon).

Is their life at risk because of the reaction stirred up by these images on the Iraqi Streets ?
NO apparently the pictures where passed around, and it was only until one solider who was disturbed by the images reported it to his commanding officer. And Seeing that the people involved are either Military police or Civilian contractors ..I doubt very much you would see them run the risk that the front line forces could FACE.

Did the people Who took the images even think of the sensitive nature of the Region ?
NO…It’s a bit obvious that these images where for their own personal enjoyment taken months ago they have been with held due to the potential outrage they would cause.

Did the Commander at the Prison take due care for her service men and women & the captives
NO.. In fact the reports state that the civilian contractors where not only allowed full access but where instigators for most of these acts. Reports that the prison requested support and direction have been dismissed by experts as a vain attempt of an apology.

The Real culprits are the 14 or so people involved (we don’t know an exact number due to security reasons).

Originally posted by GigaShadow
When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.

your still not getting this...

If your a devout Muslim this would be the last thing you would agree to even if forced.

We are not talking about a stupid College Frat party.

like i said it Beg\'s the question... what as done to get them to do it.

was it Physical ?
Beatings and other forms or excessive force ?

or Was is Physiological ?
example…where they told that they would be buried wrapped in pork & Bacon, which is a considered a one of the ultimate desecration’s in Islam .

Originally posted by GigaShadow
When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.

It is true that this conduct is much less offensive that the REAL torture conducted by Iraqis before and during the war.  However, I\'d be willing to bet that Iraqi civilians, and most others in the Arab world have no idea what a fraternity hazing is.  The concept is probably completely unknown to them.  I think it is overly optimistic to expect them to recognize the distinction.  Therefore this conduct, and the reports of it will be very dangerous to our soldiers and our whole mission there.

You can blame the messenger, and say it was "blown out of proportion..."  but how could you expect it NOT to be reported?  If not CBS, then certainly an English newspaper, Al Jezeera, or SOMEONE would have gotten wind of it some time.  It\'s crazy to blame a news outlet for not sitting on a story.  That\'s the society we live in, man.  Everyone knows that these things get out sooner or later.

The real question is how did this happen?  What the hell happened to the chain of command?  Someone wasn\'t paying attention and properly overseeing these contractors or whoever they are.  This may be little worse than a hazing, but the unfortunate reality is that\'s not good enough.  With the biases that are held against us in the Middle East, we need to be FLAWLESS in their eyes.

Originally posted by ooseven
your still not getting this...

If your a devout Muslim this would be the last thing you would agree to even if forced.

We are not talking about a stupid College Frat party.

like i said it Beg\'s the question... what as done to get them to do it.

was it Physical ?
Beatings and other forms or excessive force ?

or Was is Physiological ?
example…where they told that they would be buried wrapped in pork & Bacon, which is a considered a one of the ultimate desecration’s in Islam .

These same people of Islamic faith have no regard for life... please don\'t preach about how it desecrates their religion.  Why should we respect their religion when they can\'t even respect the value of human life?  It is that kind of double standard that the media and the Islamic fundamentalists exploit is it not?  The same type of behavior that allows them to hole up in mosques and shoot at our troops.  

Secondly, you are confusing "hazing" with a "party" - believe me when I say hazing is no party.