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Author Topic: Stupid question, I think...  (Read 3094 times)

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2004, 07:48:11 PM »
I\'ll stick to CRT till LCD catch up.. Less then 1ms response times, ohhh yea.
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2004, 10:08:04 PM »
I remember someone told me that to get 60 Hz, it requires about 16 ms or about 62.5 Hz.

But unfortunately, he said that LCD doesn\'t sync with the frame rate, thus requires it to be double that speed rate to to show it full frame rate...

that means, at 16 ms or 62.5 Hz, its can display video of about 31 frames per second...

although at 62.5 Hz, it could show all 62.5 frames, but it won\'t sync well with the refresh rate...

When LCD was first design, probably the engineer didn\'t thought about this or something...

so, that means in order to enjoy something running at 60 frames per second, it requires to be double that refreshrate as LCD doesn\'t sync....

that means 8.3 ms...or 120 Hz....
just round it down to 8 ms (125 Hz...)

LCD have other problems that keep me away from it.  Three pros of LCD are:

-no burns in
-uses less watts
-thin design, take up less backspace

the cons are:
-expensive
-most refresh rate isn\'t still fast enough
-still can\'t produce good black level
-inconsistence with viewing angle and lighting...

I heard Sony is creating this new display technology called OLED that may replace LCD and solved some of those refresh rate problem and produce much better black level...

and Toshiba is creating this SED that may replace directview CRT display.  Think of SED the same as CRT but thin design.  Take up less backspace like LCD and plasma....but the difference between SED and plasma is, it cost cheaper, uses less wattages and maybe less suspetible to burn in than plasma...

I guess we\'ll see how these two still in design works out in the coming years...

oh btw, Soulgrind,

1 ms = 1000 Hz...

umm...that\'s overkill there.  I don\'t think there is a video or even videogames running that fast (500 frames to 1000 frames) per second...

unless its for filming effects....but that\'s recording, not displaying...

when viewing CRT monitor, like you said, 75 Hz and 85 Hz are recommended...

and I also do notice flickering at 60 Hz on my 19" NEC CRT...that is why I switch it to 75 Hz...

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2004, 10:43:40 PM »
Quote
oh btw, Soulgrind,

1 ms = 1000 Hz...

umm...that\'s overkill there. I don\'t think there is a video or even videogames running that fast (500 frames to 1000 frames) per second...

Pixel response timing is different from refresh response timings.
One is per pixel the other full screen redrawing. But you already knew that. :)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 03:17:48 AM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2004, 07:53:01 AM »
Soulgrind,

LOL!  Thought you don\'t have any sense of humors...okay, whatever you say.

;)

Offline PSX_J
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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2004, 06:31:41 PM »
Ok, I have another question.  What purpose does Anisotropic Filtering serve?  Same goes with Vertical Sync and Force Mipmaps...what do they do?
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Offline THX
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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2004, 06:42:31 PM »
Vertical sync helps to prevent tearing.  I disable it because I occasionally use FRAPS to record my games.  VS causes my game to default to the FPS that FRAPS records at, which is 60.

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Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2004, 07:35:52 PM »
Anisotropic Filtering details here.


Mipmaps details here  <-- u can also read about other techniques in the side menu.

Paul.  I hope you\'re not getting confused between refresh Rates and pixel resposne timings.  
ohh well.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 07:40:45 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline NVIDIA256
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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2004, 07:42:10 PM »
Quote
Paul. I hope you\'re not getting confused between refresh Rates and pixel resposne timings.
ohh well.


I think he did.

Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2004, 07:48:34 PM »
I have no clue what is pixel response timings?

I believe refresh rate for LCD is pretty much measure in hertz...isn\'t it?

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2004, 08:43:17 PM »
It is when it comes to Refresh Rates (Full screen redrawing)
but when referring to Pixel Response times (Per Pixel)
Its when a pixel goes from black to white or how long it takes to change colour from one to another and vice visa. It\'s measured in ms. CRT monitors have less then 1ms for pixel response times, LCD range from 10ms to 30 from what I’ve seen anyway.   The lower the ms the better.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 08:50:06 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2004, 10:59:12 PM »
you are wrong...
let me prove you what i meant.

you are right that refresh rate draw the entire resolution at once...the progressive scan, non interlace one that is.

Pixel Response time is the same...

The part where you are wrong is per pixel drawing....

The pixel Response, like refresh rate, draw the entire resolutions, all the vertical and horizontal resolutions at once!  If an LCD screen had a resolution of 1024 x 768, it draw all the   786,432 pixels at once.

I think you are the one wrong about the per pixel...how is that going to work?  drawing 1 pixel at a time?  imagine, the 786,432 pixels...or about 7.8 hundred thousand of pixels...how long would that take?  If that is the case, it will take crazy fast speed to finish it....

when you say pixel goes to black or white, i know what you are talking about...you are talking about the pixels changing color or how long it take to change which is the definition of pixel response time.  Again, not per pixel....if changing per pixel....again...not possible...it actually all pixels changing at one time and how fast it chang per second...

hence the ms = mili seconds...

what is mili?
milli = thousand

milli second = thousandth of a second...

so, if an LCD have a 30 ms.  That means 3 hundredth of a second...

so, it take 3 hundredth of a second for the pixel response time to change color or frame(which is pretty much the same as refresh rate)., again the entire resolutions, not just one pixel at a time...

how to convert that 3 hundred of a second to make finish it in 1 second?

In another word, how many 3 hundredth of a second does it take for it to equal 1 second....

so 3 hundredth of a second..you know where to place the decimal I hope...

.03   or if you are confuse, 0.03

do this: 1/.03

or .03 is divided by 1 = 33.3...Hz...

I just rounded it down to 33 Hz....

another way to find the answer that takes a long time is, just add .03 + .03 over and over again until it reach 1.00 or just 1...the time it take to add the .03 to equal 1 will be how many times it "refresh per second."  Or frame per second....

which is again, about 33 1/3 times to reach 1 second...or 33 1/3 Hz....

so, in 1 second, the LCD can change the entire resolution to different color 33 1/3 times...

me, i simplify by saying it, LCD have a refresh of 33 1/3 Hz per second...

Unfortunately, a guy told me,  this refresh rate "Hz" or you would called it "pixel response time" doesn\'t sync with the framerate...and this 33 1/3 Hz is slow...as it doesn\'t sync...making it good for watching 16 frames per second video...this is the biggest reasons why many people see color drabs, smear and motion blur, as the refresh rate isn\'t fast enough.
This is usually the case with 1st generation of LCD which have aobut 30 ms.
Their later generation LCD have improve upon this...to 25 ms which is 40 Hz and 20 ms which is 50 Hz...I believe I see some 20 ms LCD back in year 2001, that time, is pretty fast for its day...then from 20 ms to 16 ms, I believe I see this last year in 2003 where some LCD have reach 16 ms which is 62.5 Hz...now this year, down to 12 ms...or 83 1/3 Hz...i rounded it down to 83 Hz....maybe next year down to 10 ms and if this continue, we may get to see 8 ms in 2006 and I think anything beyond 6 ms is NOT NECESSARY.

so, I think 8 ms is great as have the refresh rate of 125 Hz, which is perfect to watch 60 frames per second...remember it doesn\'t sync...double that...

if you want faster frame rate, 72 fps, then 7 ms is close enough....

and again 1 ms is overkilll...Under 1 ms...too much....you are talking about over 1000 Hz...such as 2,000 hz.....too much....Again, NOT NECESSARY.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 11:43:14 PM by Paul2 »

Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2004, 11:21:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
CRT monitors have less then 1ms for pixel response times, LCD range from 10ms to 30 from what I’ve seen anyway.   The lower the ms the better.



Again wrong!!!!

the good thing about CRT is, the pixel response time sync...or the refresh rate sync with the frame rates....which no need to double the refreshrate or pixel response time which is the case with LCD...

If CRT want to give their spec in "pixel response time" or in this milisecond where you have to do the math....

What is the fastest most CRT monitors refresh per second?

I just pick out 120 Hz....just convert it to ms..
again, i don\'t know how to convert it...but its around .0083 of a second....

or 8.3 milisecond.  or 8.3 ms

i just round it down to 8 ms...

again, if CRT pixel response time is under 1 ms...that equal 1000 of a second...


Unless you are talking about Y, Pb, Pr and maybe RGB timing channels which is a different story....
and they are measure in nanosecond or billionth of a second...

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2004, 04:08:15 AM »
Dood, theres a difference from response timing and pixel response timing.  Response timings refer to refresh rates. Pixel Response timings refers to per pixel response times.

One example
http://www.monitorsdirect.com/before/expert/jims_corner/munchies.shtml

maybe its wrong, but i\'ve seen a lot of pages saying the same thing. People get confused between pixel response times and refresh rates. It doesn\'t refer to drawing each pixel at a time. It refers to how quickly each pixel changes/drawn etc. CRT monitors don\'t sync the refresh rate to frame rates unless u enable them. Thats why u see tearing in video games. Then it can drop your framerates quite alot.

Think about it this way, why is there ghosting?
The scene has already been redrawn, but the pixel info can\'t keep up to the refresh rates. So each drawn scene gets wacked over each other.


ps. love how u have rewriten some of tomshardware guides info.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 04:24:04 AM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2004, 10:10:15 AM »
what do you mean?  You are saying I am copy and pasted and rewritten those?

Quote


Dood, theres a difference from response timing and pixel response timing. Response timings refer to refresh rates. Pixel Response timings refers to per pixel response times.


There you are wrong.  From the link you posted, where did it say "per pixel response?"  Ah ha!  You just came up with per pixel stuff...you are probably confuse with graphic card or something.

Quote
It doesn\'t refer to drawing each pixel at a time. It refers to how quickly each pixel changes/drawn etc.


ummm...is the same thing....dude...what you said...pretty much the same stuff...if nobody believe me, read slowly at the quote above slowly....you will notice he is talking the same thing...
It does refer to drawing/changing color each pixel drawn at a time and how many times it does per second...

Quote
CRT monitors don\'t sync the refresh rate to frame rates unless u enable them. Thats why u see tearing in video games. Then it can drop your framerates quite alot.


i think your eyes are tired or you are very confuse here....CRT monitors don\'t sync with refresh rate?  Do you mean LCD monitors?  You can\'t have it both ways....hmmm....

Quote
Think about it this way, why is there ghosting?
The scene has already been redrawn, but the pixel info can\'t keep up to the refresh rates. So each drawn scene gets wacked over each other.


okay, here you makes more sense.  Now i understand what you meant.

That\'s the same as I am trying to say too...pixel response time doesn\'t sync with refresh rate....

this is very true with 30 ms, or about 33 1/3 times of pixel being draw/changing color per second....

thus, on computer graphic, you enable 60 Hz, or 72 Hz, 75 Hz, or higher...it doesn\'t sync with them...or the framerate for that matter...if a movie or videogame running at 60 fps, you will see color smear because of slow 33 1/3 per second pixel response time as you will call it...or 30 ms....

the much improve 16 ms solve the pixel lagging.  because at 16 ms, that\'s about 62.5 times it "change color/drawing it" as you would call it per second.  And that\'s a bit faster than 60 Hz...and making it good to play videogames at 60 fps...but in theory, since it doesn\'t sync with Hz or frame rate, it have to double that speed to get much better chance of them syncing each other...

I could be wrong about doubling the speed of "pixel response time" to sync with them since this is what a guy told me....but everything else...i am pretty correct...

Quote
We know the fasted LCD today have a 16ms response time. CRT monitors on the other hand have a response time less than 1ms. For this reason many hard core gamers still prefer a CRT monitor to a LCD.


I don\'t know if this is true...but I dobut it...CRT monitor have pixel response time less than 1 ms...that\'s about 1000 Hz it refresh a second...

Quote

On the best LCD monitors today response times are as fast as 16ms, for example: The Hitachi CML174 has a rise time of 12ms and the decay time 4 ms or less. Look for monitor with a fast decay time. The decay time is the most recognizable transition to human eyes and is the characteristic that creates the ghosting on some LCD\'s.


wow i learned something from that web...16 ms, a rise of 12 ms and a fall of 4 ms...

4 ms fall...so it took 1/250 of a second to "fall."....oK...
could this mean 12 + 4 = 16 ms?  I am confuse there...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 10:17:40 AM by Paul2 »

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2004, 03:30:06 PM »
Your still calling pixel response times the same as refresh times.  They\'re NOT the same thing.
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