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Author Topic: Stupid question, I think...  (Read 3076 times)

Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2004, 03:41:33 PM »
okay...they may not be the same thing, but they pretty do the same thing...i just brief summarize its as hertz and refresh rate so its easier to understand...

Again

"From the link you posted, where did it say "per pixel response?" Ah ha! You just came up with per pixel stuff...you are probably confuse with graphic card or something."
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 03:44:35 PM by Paul2 »

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2004, 03:46:03 PM »
I was giving u a example of what pixel response times are. They\'re referring to per pixel response times not refresh rates.
Per pixel doesn\'t mean how quickly the screen refreshes. It means how quickly the pixels change color.  

Vsync isn\'t enabled on CRT monitors by default. Pixels sync to the refresh rate yea, but refresh rates don\'t sync to FPS unless u enable vsync. Vsync just caps framerates to the monitors refresh rate.

LCD monitors are rated by pixel response times rather then refresh rates. Refresh rates aren\'t their problem.  Pixels keeping up to them is.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 03:48:48 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2004, 05:01:01 PM »
okay, CRT refresh rate doesn\'t have to sync with the frame rates and you can sync  it by enable it...that\'s the cool thing about CRT, you can sync the refresh rate to the framerate.

But again, LCD doesn\'t sync at all!!!!!

Quote
Per pixel doesn\'t mean how quickly the screen refreshes. It means how quickly the pixels change color.


either you don\'t know what refresh rate it or pixel changing color is...

refresh rate means how fast the color change to a different color.

If a screen have a 60 Hz refresh rate per second....

that means in one second, the screen (entire resolution, if you are confuse, the rest of all the pixels) can change to a different color at 60 times per second.

and the good thing about CRT again,
it can sync with the framerate and if a framerate runs at 60 frames per second...good, you will see all 60 frames running at 60 hz as they sync!

I think you are confuse with

pixel response as they measure it differently....instead of measuring how fast it "refresh" the color, or as you, soulgrind would call it, "change/draw the color per second.  It measure how fast it take to change color at a time .

again, the underlying words are:

and at a time.

per second.

Anyway, speaking of that....I finally find out how to convert:

frame rate or even refresh rate per second to at a time.  and vice versa.

click on the attach pic I posted below.  I finally realize that the manufacturers got pretty smart and measure the pixel response time in decimal form  instead of fraction.

I think that\'s where you got confused.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:11:34 PM by Paul2 »

Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2004, 05:01:01 PM »
Whoops double post...delete this if you may.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:08:36 PM by Paul2 »

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2004, 05:15:00 PM »
Dood, you\'re not understanding. You keep referring to pixel response times to refresh rates.  Refresh rates are when the screen redraws the scene or whatever is being viewed.  Pixel response times are DIFFRERENT from refresh rates.  

I\'ve already said that so many times it’s not funny; the refresh rates update the screen to quickly for the pixels response times...... That’s what you’re getting confused about. They are NOT the same thing.   You can show me all the formulas you want, they don\'t change the fact that they\'re 2 different things.

LCD monitors just have very similar refresh rates to their pixel response times.  Thats what your getting confused about. Thats why older ones have ghosting issues.
CRT monitors are different, their pixel response times are under 1ms, and their refresh times can be all over the place.  Normally over 60 hz / 16ms etc.  Again, they\'re 2 different things.  Companies just use ms for lcds to judge their pixel response times rather then refresh rates. I\'ve never seen a monitor LCD out now with a refresh rate lower then 50/60hz. So its not even a issue.  Theres monitors with 30ms response times, does that mean their refresh rates run at 33hz.  Hardly think so.


example
http://www.aocmonitor-anz.com/monitors_lm520.htm  This monitor has a response time of 30ms. A refresh rate of 75hz at 1024x768.  If they were the same thing. The response time should be 11ms etc.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:30:16 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2004, 05:26:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Dood  

I\'ve already said that so many times it’s not funny; the refresh rates update the screen to quickly for the pixels response times......


Mate,

I know you are wrong on that.

But lets play pretend if you are right....

tell me, if refresh rate update the screen too quickly for the pixel responses...

tell me what if LCD have a 16 ms or any ms...  what does ms stands for?  Microsoft?:laughing: :cool:

16 milliseconds..

and how do you put that in decimal form...meaning what\'s is that speed at a time in decimal form?
0.016 or .016...same thing....

UNLESS YOU CAN PROOVE ME OTHERWISE. SUCH AS A LINKED OR ANYTHING SITE THAT CLAIM OTHERWISE...:cool:

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2004, 05:31:10 PM »
incase you missed it
example
http://www.aocmonitor-anz.com/monitors_lm520.htm
This monitor has a response time of 40ms. A refresh rate of 75hz at 1024x768 MAX. If they were the same thing. The response time should be 13ms etc.  NOT 40ms.  Again pixel response times are different from refresh rates.

Read the pdf file for the specs.  
I\'m not gonna bother replying to your little formulas or retarded posts until u understand the difference.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:35:04 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline mm
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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2004, 05:40:46 PM »
get a room guys
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2004, 05:44:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
...Theres monitors with 30ms response times, does that mean their refresh rates run at 33hz.  Hardly think so.



Again, the reasons for this is because the LCD pixel response time don\'t sync with refresh rate...you can chose 60 Hz, 75 Hz, etc...but the 30 ms or 33 1/3 times per sec doesn\'t sync at 60 Hz or 75 Hz...to put it in another way, the 33.3 times per second or 30 ms at a time doesn\'t sync at all...doesn\'t matter what refresh rate you put it on.  its just go 30 ms in 1 second, it finish about 33.3 times in 1 second of refreshing/color changing constantly....

also, at such a such slow speed...30 ms, or equivalent to 33.3333...Hz doesn\'t seem to show any flicker...

i guess it have to do with what you said way earlier on page 1.

Quote
refresh rates work differently in LCD monitors, they don\'t use a electron beam, they use a active element (TFT), which is why there isn\'t tearing etc on lcd monitors.


or flickering problem....

okay, refresh rate and pixel response isn\'t the same thing...I will agree with you on that...but they do the same thing...except pixel response time doesn\'t sync with refresh rate and even frame rate...they are too independent...i guess....

and the part where you got confuse is how they are being measure...

refresh rate are measure how many times it "refresh" per second.

while pixel response are measure at how fast it take or the time it take to "refresh" or change to a different color at a time.

Again, I agree with you pixel response time isn\'t the same as refresh rate as LCD "pixel response" doesn\'t sync with the refresh rate.

But again, I AM RIGHT ABOUT THE SPEED OF THE PIXEL RESPONSE.

I think you don\'t know how to do the math or something....you probably didn\'t even know what 20 milliseconds mean...maybe you know milliseconds mean thousandth of a second...but you are not sure what the heck it is...I am pretty good at Math dude....

I wonder THX, who I guess is pretty good in math can decide if the formula i posted above is correct or incorrect....

Anybody knows good math here can give some inputs about this?

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2004, 08:08:27 PM »
what are your right about?. You keep going from it isn\'t the same thing to it is the same thing.   dood make up your mind.  
I know what refresh rates are, i know pixel response times are.    I\'ve already proven they\'re different from each other.   I\'ve said that from the start.

My first post in the whole thread was about refresh rates.
Quote
Basically its to stop tearing (when vsync is enabled)
Its the amount of times your monitor redraws the display per sec. 85hz = redrawing 85 times a sec and it stops eye fatigue



Try reading my past posts man.



ps. I\'ve never said you\'re wrong about pixel response times or even how to measure them.  I\'m saying u were wrong when you was saying they\'re the same thing as refresh rates.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 08:09:47 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2004, 09:16:33 PM »
really,

but 12 ms does equals approx 83 Hz.  I just make it short.

And I know for sure you didn\'t even what 12 milliseconds really mean.

If you do know what it means, you wouldn\'t agree with a website that said CRT monitors have less than 1 ms of pixel response time....whatever.

Or you need the LCD pixel response time to be less than 1 ms which is ridiculous.

You are also wrong about the per pixel response time.  There is no such thing.

by what i mean the response time is the same thing is,
the pixel response does what the refresh rate does.

both of them draw all the pixels or changing color and one is measure by per a second and the other per a hertz.

but unfortunately, LCD pixel response is different than CRT.  Is that they can\'t sync at all.

They don\'t sync with refresh rate and frame rate.

Honestly, you wouldn\'t know how fast say, a 16 ms is and stuff.  You wouldn\'t even know how to convert it to per a second either.  you wouldn\'t have a clue that 16 ms does equal 62.5 Hz per second....

If you knew, you would have believe the LCD that NVidia said have a 12 ms change the color a bit more than 83 times per second.  I just make is short as 83 Hz.  That\'s pretty fast.

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2004, 10:09:55 PM »
dood, I’m not bothering anymore. You have no clue.  You keep saying refresh rates are the same as pixel response times. I\'m not wasting anymore energy in this thread.  


wow 12ms i really don\'t what means :rolleyes:

1 dived by .016 (because its milli sec its in the hundreds of a sec which is 3 decimal places .000 etc) which = 83.33hz

Heres another one.  15ms = 66.66hz  wow i\'m so cool.
I can throw around some equations that YOU learnt from tomshardwareguide most likely.

Quote
by what i mean the response time is the same thing is,
the pixel response does what the refresh rate does.


LOL. When they say ms, they are talking about pixel response times not refresh rates. They\'re 2 different things.
Once again, refresh rates are when the screen redraws a image.
Pixel response times are the speed the pixels change color.
But only now the pixel response times have started to catch up to the refresh rates.
I\'ve even given you a link to a monitor the PROVES they\'re 2 different things...  


When you start listening to me, you\'ll start learning something.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 10:31:40 PM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2004, 12:41:42 AM »
you are so wrong and very stubborn to admit that you are wrong.  As if you have problem of admitting it.  Tomshardware?  What?

And, also, you know how to do that by using my equation.  I didn\'t even know what is tomshardwareguide nor do i even go there...never heard of it...

I use my head to do it as i am very good in math.

I think you can\'t believe you lost to me and still stuck up....gosh, in my entire life, i never seen a stuckup person like you...you see if i am wrong, i will admit it.  But i am not...

look at my other previous posts in component video thingy....where i once said RGB is better than YUV because i said YUV output 4:2:2...than later I realize YUV can output 4:4:4 and i said i was wrong about that because 4:4:4 does equal RGB 8:8:8....i was wrong about it, but nobody knows...and i find out by myself i was wrong.  what did i do?  I tell everybody about it.

But about this stuff I am talking about, i am right!  You don\'t know me, if i am wrong, I will admit it...but how can i fasely admit i am wrong and you are right when you are not?  What you said also confuse me and i tried to visualize what you said and do some heavy thinking, but it doesn\'t work nor does it make any sense....so you are wrong...

I used to think you are cool, but now i realize you are very arrogant.

look at your previous post.

Quote
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
It is when it comes to Refresh Rates (Full screen redrawing)
but when referring to Pixel Response times (Per Pixel)
Its when a pixel goes from black to white or how long it takes to change colour from one to another and vice visa. It\'s measured in ms. CRT monitors have less then 1ms for pixel response times, LCD range from 10ms to 30 from what I’ve seen anyway.   The lower the ms the better.


you got that out of a website that fill with some wrong/bad information and you didn\'t know.  also, you failed to prove what you are talking about.  you said CRT need to be less than 1 ms, where you got that out of the website which had wrong information.

and you said LCD have 10 ms to 30 ms...see that time which is yesterday, you didn\'t even know what that really mean and i try to prove you to and do this conversion.

Look, I am video/audio freak...I know my stuff.... as i am very good with math, and i used it to see if those are right and i am right.

Whereas, you go to internet link and there some bad information out there you fall for it not even knows what it means....

its when you actuallly get out of that stuck up and ignorance mind of your and admit that you are wrong...look, you learn from me how to use the calculation and you realize what i said was correct, but i was devastated at how you said if i listen to you, i may learned something from you...

I did try to listen to you, but you are wrong. and i try to rationalize it, but it didn\'t work out what you are saying...and i didn\'t learn much from you....instead, its the other way around, you learned from me and you realize what i said makes sense...

Quote
Once again, refresh rates are when the screen redraws a image.
Pixel response times are the speed the pixels change color.


dude,

look refresh rate are when the screen draws the image...tell me how does it draw the image.  BINGO!  by changing the color.

pixel response draw the image too, by changing the color

both are measure how fast it draw the image.  One is measure at how fast it draw/change color total in 1 second.  While the other is measure at how fast it took to draw/change to a different color.

Quote

wow 12ms i really don\'t what means

1 dived by .016 (because its milli sec its in the hundreds of a sec which is 3 decimal places .000 etc) which = 83.33hz

Heres another one. 15ms = 66.66hz wow i\'m so cool.
I can throw around some equations that YOU learnt from tomshardwareguide most likely.


dude, you learned that equations from me at the earlier post today...look yesterday, you didn\'t even know it and it shows on page 1.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 12:46:25 AM by Paul2 »

Offline §ôµÏG®ïñD

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2004, 02:41:02 AM »
Now who’s telling who what they know.  lol.  How am I wrong? Because pixel response times are different from refresh rates, and I’m not saying otherwise.  How am i stuck up?  
Good one man.   I gave you a link to a monitor that has a 40ms pixel response time and a refresh rate of 75hz.   Now go do your little math equation (which your so good at) and come back and tell me if the refresh rates match 40ms (pixel response times).   I\'ll tell you right now they won\'t match, why because they\'re 2 different things.   You give me a website saying pixel response times are the SAME thing as refresh rates and I’ll gladly believe you.

Ps. I give more credibility to a site BASED on monitors to what you say your friend tells you.


Quote
you said CRT need to be less than 1 ms,


I did not say that, I said CRTS have a pixel response time 1ms or less.  If you wanna do a pissing contest I was a PC technician for 3 years, it was my job to know this stuff.  



Its this simple.  Do u think refresh rates are the same thing as Pixel Response times?

Hell, I’d be surprised if you even know HOW the refresh rate actually works inside the monitor, or even how many electron guns they use or what part decays the quickest.  (referring to crt for your google search) Very easy questions to answer too.

You being a expert and all should be able to answer them. But i guess anyone could. With google and all.

read
http://compreviews.about.com/library/weekly/aa-crtvlcd.htm

I Quote
"The high refresh rates and response times of CRT monitors also makes them ideal for video purposes."  
Notice the and.  sounds like 2 different things to me.

I\'ll say it one last time. Pixel response times are not the same as refresh rates. They are 2 different things.

Heres another site saying the same thing about CRT response times being 1ms or less, they even refer to the original link i gave you.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/_preview.php?articleID=318

heres another
http://www.mikhailtech.com/modules.php?name=Articles&rop=showcontent&id=67

Do u still need more links man, i\'m getting tired of proving stuff to you, then you just saying the sites are wrong.

Now this is my last post for good in this thread. Call me wrong, call me whatever you want.   You\'ve made up your mind, so be it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 03:21:46 AM by §ôµÏG®ïñD »
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Offline Paul2

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Stupid question, I think...
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2004, 10:42:19 AM »
Like I said in way previous posts, the reason why say 40 ms or 25 Hz per second doesn\'t sync with 60 Hz on computer refresh rate is because they are independent.  Way on page 1, I say Lcd pixel response time doesn\'t sync with framerate.  So, I am very convince pixel response time is the same stuff as refresh rate.  Except they don\'t sync.  Again and again, pixel response time doesn\'t sync with computer monitor 60 Hz or whatever, is because they don\'t sync at all.  Say if one runs at 40 ms, or 25 Hz, it doesn\'t sync with computer "refresh rate".  I believe it just go 25 Hz constantly even though you output 60 Hz, 75 Hz, and its show that the pixel response time or the refresh rate of 25 Hz per second get "ghosting" color smeared and such because of slow "frame rate" when play videogames running at 60 frames per second.  Now again, its a fact that refresh rate is the same as pixel response time.

Plus, you kept saying i use googles and stuff while you are the one that get wrong information from your "search engines."

Just because you used to be a computer technician doesn\'t mean you knows everything about computer or what to make a monitor.  You are not even an engineer.

Look, my math level in my Senior year is Geometry.  I use to learned Algebra in my 11th grade.  And I get As and Bs.

Soulgrind, what\'s your math level in your high school or college for that matter?  do you even go to college?

If you say i use googles or whatever, then go find me a link that show you how to convert ms to per second and believe me, many video engineer experts (you not being one of them) know that pixel response time is the same as refresh rate.

You say I google and comes up with the formula...sure, go look for it...you don\'t even know the formula if it wasn\'t for me.  and you act like you know that formula a long time ago...whatever!

If you do, you would have realize first, pixel response time is the same as refresh rate.

and second, a CRT with less than 1 ms of "pixel response time" doesn\'t make sense as they are over 1000 hz per second, or 1000 times it refresh/draw/change color per second.

You see on the bottom of page 1, you say CRT need to have pixel response time of less than 1 ms and you say the lower the LCD pixel response time, the better..which is right.  but you don\'t time what 1 ms means...like how fast that is or the speed or how to get that total up in 1 second...and less than 1 ms, that is all bull.

 

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