More on Moore and F911

Originally posted by GigaShadow
duh... :rolleyes:

You can be really mean sometimes....

*Cries in a corner*

Just watched it. He dissed the democrats just as harshly as the republicans. There are some things that I did not buy. On the other hand there were other subject matter I had not heard of, and found plausable. I will not go into detail, but since Moore said on his website to download it if you wish. Then prob would atleast give it a look. If you do not believe it then no foul. You can sit back and think of some as of whackos. On the other hand some things may ring true to you. Either way it is another perspective.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
Being sympathetic to enemies of the US is a start.

God i just love that old old fashioned ...Your with us or your against us attitude.

Ah if only the wrold was Balck and White :rolleyes:.

So being sympathetic to terrorists who attack our country and an enemy our country is fighting is patriotic?  

Yes, ooseven it is that black and white when it comes to a being unpatriotic.  IMO it borders on treason.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Originally posted by ooseven
God i just love that old old fashioned ...Your with us or your against us attitude.

Ah if only the wrold was Balck and White :rolleyes:.

Is wrold some sort of slang for something?  

Originally posted by GigaShadow
So being sympathetic to terrorists who attack our country and an enemy our country is fighting is patriotic?  

Yes, ooseven it is that black and white when it comes to a being unpatriotic.  IMO it borders on treason.

Giga, liberals need all those shades of gray so they have wiggle room to flip flop on issues and so when they\'re wrong they\'re right. No offense.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
So being sympathetic to terrorists who attack our country and an enemy our country is fighting is patriotic?  

Yes, ooseven it is that black and white when it comes to a being unpatriotic.  IMO it borders on treason.

When was anyone being sympathetic toward the Saudi terrorists who attacked our country?  It\'s George Bush who is sympathetic to Saudi Arabia...  a nation that has no freedom of expression, no freedom of religion, capital punishment by decapitation for robbery, drug smuggling, sodomy, "sorcery" and all greater crimes...  There is no fair legal procedure or due process in Saudi Arabia, and their criminal justice system is a sham.

Get a load of this:  "Saudi Arabia continued to provide refuge and financial support to Idi Amin, the exiled Ugandan leader whose regime was responsible for a reign of terror that left an estimated 300,00 dead in the 1970s. After fleeing Uganda in 1979, Amin arrived in the kingdom at the invitation of the late King Faisal and reportedly has since been protected by government-paid Saudi guards. A journalist with Uganda\'s New Vision newspaper interviewed Amin in Jeddah in 1999 and reported that he had moved from his home in the city center "to a more exclusive area...mainly occupied by powerful oil sheikhs."

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=saudia

The US Government and the Bush family supports the Saudi royal family in all things, and turns a blind eye to their human rights abuses.  I guess in your eyes I\'ve committed treason for calling attention to reality?

You really need to get off the Moore bandwagon.   Really - he is lowering your IQ.  

On that note, I respect you as one of my peers Core, though you are on the other side of the fence so to speak.  To feed off Moore\'s fabrications only insults your own reputation.  You don\'t see me quoting Limbaugh do you?  I would hope you of all people would see F911 and the accusations that Moore makes about the "8 degrees of separation" the Saudi\'s have to Bush is a crock of shit.  Give me a budget and a year and I could twist things around to make you look like Eric Rudolph\'s (extreme right wing neo nazi fugitive who bombed numerous places in the US including the Atlanta Olympic Games - he is on trial now) best friend.

The explanation is for our European friends who most likely have no clue who Eric Rudolph is.

If you insist, we\'ll leave Bush out of it.

The US Government supports the Saudi royal family in all things, and turns a blind eye to their human rights abuses. I guess in your eyes I\'ve committed treason for calling attention to reality?

Is that better?  

Btw, Giga I was wondering... Do you support all past, present, and future wars the US could ever engage in, or would there ever be a situation in which you would oppose one of our wars?  Remember, I\'m talking about the decision to go to war, not "supporting the troops."

For your reference, I have not opposed all wars we have engaged in.  I was in favor of invading Afghanistan, and I argued for it on PSX2Central BEFORE the 9/11 attack.

Past I will take as in the past century - there really wouldn\'t be a point in taking a stance on anything like the War of 1812.  

Given that guideline, I would have to say yes to your question.  I come from a military family - no I am not Lt. Dan, but we have had a member of our family serve in every major war this country has fought in since the Revolutionary War.

I think more could be done regarding our relationship with Saudi Arabia, but it hardly warrants the amount of attention certain pundits are emphasizing it should receive.  Given the rest of the problems in the region, forcing a supposed "ally" to enact a "regime change" is not what should be focused on at this time.  I think Saudi Arabia has stepped up its crackdown on the fundamentalists and are starting to realize that they are as much a threat to the Saudi government as they are to the US.

Damnit. My aunts computer is a pile of $#!t and thus all that i had written was erased. What luck. Anyway, I think Moore brings up a few good point and you really just have to go into the thing knowing that its biased. Its more so the fault of the viewer than moore just due to the fact that people take things so seriously and/or are so misinformed to begin with.

All that patriotism bullshit is kind of rediculous BTW but im not going to make an issue out of it.

Basically, its an interesting film, or whatever you want to call it. I think all the heat the thing gets is kinda silly considering its just a movie. If you dont like the guy or the movie then hey good for you. If you do then the same goes for you. Im just giving my 2cents on the film. If somebody wants to open this thread or the subject up for debate then fine but for the time being ill just say that it was interesting/enjoyable from THIS side of the fence.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
Past I will take as in the past century - there really wouldn\'t be a point in taking a stance on anything like the War of 1812.  

Given that guideline, I would have to say yes to your question.  I come from a military family - no I am not Lt. Dan, but we have had a member of our family serve in every major war this country has fought in since the Revolutionary War.

Do I understand correctly that YES, you do support every past (20 TH Century), present, and hypothetical future war the US could ever be involved in?  If so that answer deeply disturbs me.  I really did not expect you to give that answer.

I asked that question because I was trying to understand the thought process of people like yourself who support this war in Iraq.  I thought, if you support this war, which seems like complete bullshit to a large portion of the US population including me, then what kind of war could you oppose?  If you oppose none, then that implies that you have the opinion that the US can do no wrong, and every war we engage in is automatically blessed by the gods as a holy righteous use of force.  If I\'m exaggerating, please set me straight.

I think the United States CAN do wrong, and HAS done wrong on many occasions.  For example, I thought the Vietnam war was generally understood to be a complete mistake for us.  We killed something like 5 million Vietnamese, and around 58,000 of our soldiers were killed, and we accomplished nothing.  Isn\'t that a war you could oppose in hindsight?  I\'ve heard some say that the only reason we didn\'t win the Vietnam war was because we were not properly committed.  This is crazyness.  There was no amount of force we could have committed to that confict that would have defeated the North Vietnamese.  It does not take a great stretch of imagination to see the Iraq war going in the same direction.  Do we as a nation not learn lessons from our mistakes?

You may read these things and think I hate my country, but nothing could be further from the truth.  I love this country, and that\'s why I want to do my part to make sure we consider our decisions carefully and make no more awful mistakes.

Also, I don\'t think being from a military family should have anything to do with this.  As I said, this is a question about the motives and decisions made by our leadership in going to war.  If anything, a soldier and a veteran should have a greater interest in peace than the ordinary civilian dork like me.  If you had said that you come from a family of Presidents, that would have supported your answer better.

Originally posted by Coredweller
Do I understand correctly that YES, you do support every past (20 TH Century), present, and hypothetical future war the US could ever be involved in?  If so that answer deeply disturbs me.  I really did not expect you to give that answer.

I asked that question because I was trying to understand the thought process of people like yourself who support this war in Iraq.  I thought, if you support this war, which seems like complete bullshit to a large portion of the US population including me, then what kind of war could you oppose?  If you oppose none, then that implies that you have the opinion that the US can do no wrong, and every war we engage in is automatically blessed by the gods as a holy righteous use of force.  If I\'m exaggerating, please set me straight.

I think the United States CAN do wrong, and HAS done wrong on many occasions.  For example, I thought the Vietnam war was generally understood to be a complete mistake for us.  We killed something like 5 million Vietnamese, and around 58,000 of our soldiers were killed, and we accomplished nothing.  Isn\'t that a war you could oppose in hindsight?  I\'ve heard some say that the only reason we didn\'t win the Vietnam war was because we were not properly committed.  This is crazyness.  There was no amount of force we could have committed to that confict that would have defeated the North Vietnamese.  It does not take a great stretch of imagination to see the Iraq war going in the same direction.  Do we as a nation not learn lessons from our mistakes?

You may read these things and think I hate my country, but nothing could be further from the truth.  I love this country, and that\'s why I want to do my part to make sure we consider our decisions carefully and make no more awful mistakes.

Also, I don\'t think being from a military family should have anything to do with this.  As I said, this is a question about the motives and decisions made by our leadership in going to war.  If anything, a soldier and a veteran should have a greater interest in peace than the ordinary civilian dork like me.  If you had said that you come from a family of Presidents, that would have supported your answer better.

As far as being a military family, it has a lot to do with who I am and my opinions on matters like this.  I was raised as a military brat and I served my time as well, though I didn\'t make it a career.  

I will admit one can always find a reason for calling a war a mistake in hindsight.  There are many valid reasons as to why Vietnam was a mistake and I would essentially agree that the Vietnam War was pointless - even if it were to contain Communism in SE Asia.  My father hated Vietnam when he was there - not because he hated the cause or the people, he hated it because he felt like he was in prison.  I would imagine some of our troops in Iraq feel exactly the same way now.  Does that make the Iraqi war was a mistake?  Time will tell - I think it is way too early to make that determination now.

The US isn\'t perfect, but our country with all its faults is still better than any other country in the world today.  Whenever there is a problem in the world, who does the UN come running to?  It amazes me that people in other countries think we shouldn\'t "police" the world, yet when the shit gets deep they are the first ones begging for our help.  The countries and citizens that are critical of us now should try and remember that nothing is perfect, but on the whole we do our best to make the world a better place, which is a lot more than I can say for other countries.

[Titan]

I probably should learn not to have an opinion on war. I\'m going into the military, maybe as a helicopter pilot, and will go no matter what I think. What I think of the war doesn\'t matter, I\'d still be there.