More on Moore and F911

[SirMystiq]

I saw the movie. It was alright. My girlfriend cried when they were showing all of those images of the dead babies and when the mom read the letter.

I expected the movie to tell only half-truths and stretch a bit. But the whole "unpatriotic" thing on Moore is bullshit. Why? He showed both sides of the story, the innocent dead in Iraq, the story of one of our own dying, the Iraqi\'s being evil and the American soldiers being evil.

I don\'t know Giga, you seem so sure nothing in the movie is real, prove it otherwise. Go explain to the average person who goes to see that movie and made a decision on who to vote because of it. What I found more stricking was all of those black representatives being shot down one by one and how FOX 4 sold out....I mean made a mistake...or made it seem like other stations made the mistake.


Also that every person that Bush put in charge in Afghanistan was a member on some company that Bush used to associate with. And that the pipe through Afghanistan is going to benefit one of Cheney\'s companies.

And Giga it wasn\'t the "he knew a daughter of an uncle who stood next to the elevator..." crap, he made connections and unless you can prove that secret service agents aren\'t protecting that Arabian guy, or that senators don\'t have kids in Iraq, or that soldiers in Iraq don\'t have sour feelings about Bush or that THERE ARE NO WMD and that Bush never assured America that there were, then I\'ll believe you. We have spent more time looking for the nukes than the inspectors did.

When he got in that ice cream truck...funniest things ever

The one thing that caused the most disturbance among the audience(some guy yelled "that stupid mother****er") was when Bush was making some big comment about WMD, Iraq and the war and then he said "now watch this drive"...Also when he sat there after being told that we were under attack.

It is propaganda, but then again what isn\'t? The whole point is if the propaganda works or not and in this case, unless you\'re a firm Republican, this movie will cause people to swing to the Democrat\'s side.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
I mean there are scenes in the film showing Iraqi\'s as peace loving innocent people - that is not being critical of Bush - that is providing inaccurate information for the purpose of portraying the feeling of sympathy for Saddam Era Iraq.

Let me play Devil\'s Advocate here, for a second.

Is it not possible that some of the citizens in Iraq actually were peace loving innocents? You know like the everyday people. If they were all warmongering mass murderers why even save them in the first place?

Originally posted by SirMystiq

I don\'t know Giga, you seem so sure nothing in the movie is real, prove it otherwise. Go explain to the average person who goes to see that movie and made a decision on who to vote because of it. What I found more stricking was all of those black representatives being shot down one by one and how FOX 4 sold out....I mean made a mistake...or made it seem like other stations made the mistake.

First, try scrolling up - find mm\'s post in this thread that links to THE FACTS.  Nevermind I will quote some for you:

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening—before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.

At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? The first retracting networks were CNN and CBS, not Fox.  (Two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) In fact, Fox didn\'t retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.

Originally posted by SirMystiq
Also that every person that Bush put in charge in Afghanistan was a member on some company that Bush used to associate with. And that the pipe through Afghanistan is going to benefit one of Cheney\'s companies.

Afghanistan has its own government and President - elections are not far away either.  Afghanistan is not Iraq - there is no occupational government.

Originally posted by SirMystiq
And Giga it wasn\'t the "he knew a daughter of an uncle who stood next to the elevator..." crap, he made connections and unless you can prove that secret service agents aren\'t protecting that Arabian guy, or that senators don\'t have kids in Iraq, or that soldiers in Iraq don\'t have sour feelings about Bush or that THERE ARE NO WMD and that Bush never assured America that there were, then I\'ll believe you. We have spent more time looking for the nukes than the inspectors did.

Early in this segment, Moore states that “only one” member of Congress has a child in Iraq.  The action of the segment consists of Moore accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

 

Moore’s statement is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to “sacrifice” his child in any way. But the fact is, Moore\'s opening ("only one") and his conclusion ("not a single member") are both incorrect. Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden\'s son Beau is on active duty; although Beau Biden has no control over where he is deployed, he has not been sent to Iraq, and therefore does not "count" for Moore\'s purposes.

 

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is serving on the U.S.S. McFaul in the Persian Gulf.

 

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

….Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.
            According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive.

            What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.’”

            Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.

Originally posted by SirMystiq

The one thing that caused the most disturbance among the audience(some guy yelled "that stupid mother****er") was when Bush was making some big comment about WMD, Iraq and the war and then he said "now watch this drive"...Also when he sat there after being told that we were under attack.

Bush was refering to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - Moore edited it for his own purposes - NOT IRAQ.

Here is the link again that mm put up - its all there:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

It might help if you read what people post before acting like you know what you are talking about.  If you don\'t think that link is enough - there are plenty more in the forum that will shoot down Moore\'s spin on 911.

Originally posted by SirMystiq

unless you\'re a firm Republican, this movie will cause people to swing to the Democrat\'s side.

That should read "unless you are intelligent, this movie will cause people to swing the Democrat\'s side.

(edit) Must be nice - even to those with IQ\'s in the 70\'s.

I don\'t need to see this movie to know that bush is bad for our government and has crippled america since he got in office.

While I am not a big Kerry fan anyone besides GWB is needed in the white house.

[clips]

^^^love that new avy qdog!...anyway i won\'t say much about this, i finally saw the movie and honestly, it really didn\'t tell me anything that i didn\'t already know..i already was familiar with how bush had shady relations with saudi arabia as i pointed out indirectly in another thread..some of it is spin but alot of it is true..

i only didn\'t agree with him on the spot about when he found out about the twin towers..i don\'t think he should have rushed out of the classroom in which to cause panic...other than that i agreed with mostly everything in the film


*i just had to add the one part where he was ripping the coalition of the willing..more like the coalition of the assed out armies! seriously..the only country that\'s respectable are the brits...

SirMystiq excellent post.

Moore appeared to be critical of most everyone in the film. That is not a bad thing. He raises issues that should be addressed. This country has been in a the US can do no wrong for a few years now. Truth is probably in the middle ground somewhere.

The sad part of this situation is that the election is mostly going to be governed by this situation. I would prefer the cantidates talk about things that effect me and my family. Things such as the economy.

I would love for them to discuss trickle down economics. Many in my family were around when trickle down was first tried. They all claim to this day that it was a leading factor to the depression.

I find it humerous that the most intelligent - IMHO - liberal/left wing/whatever person in this forum has only made one comment on the film.  Something to the effect that it was good entertainment - nothing more nothing less.  Even though they hate the Bush administration they are intelligent enough to know fact from fiction.

[SirMystiq]

Originally posted by GigaShadow
First, try scrolling up - find mm\'s post in this thread that links to THE FACTS.  Nevermind I will quote some for you:

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening—before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.

At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? The first retracting networks were CNN and CBS, not Fox.  (Two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) In fact, Fox didn\'t retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.




Afghanistan has its own government and President - elections are not far away either.  Afghanistan is not Iraq - there is no occupational government.



Early in this segment, Moore states that “only one” member of Congress has a child in Iraq.  The action of the segment consists of Moore accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

 

Moore’s statement is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to “sacrifice” his child in any way. But the fact is, Moore\'s opening ("only one") and his conclusion ("not a single member") are both incorrect. Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden\'s son Beau is on active duty; although Beau Biden has no control over where he is deployed, he has not been sent to Iraq, and therefore does not "count" for Moore\'s purposes.

 

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is serving on the U.S.S. McFaul in the Persian Gulf.

 

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

….Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.
            According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive.

            What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.’”

            Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.



Bush was refering to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - Moore edited it for his own purposes - NOT IRAQ.

Here is the link again that mm put up - its all there:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

It might help if you read what people post before acting like you know what you are talking about.  If you don\'t think that link is enough - there are plenty more in the forum that will shoot down Moore\'s spin on 911.




That should read "unless you are intelligent, this movie will cause people to swing the Democrat\'s side.

(edit) Must be nice - even to those with IQ\'s in the 70\'s.

Most of the stuff I read were suppositions.

That stuff about Fox 4 being shown as the reason why every other channel changed their mind wasn\'t the stricking point on me. I think that it was just Moore\'s way of saying "of course the un-biased Fox network had the opposite opinion"

The whole thing about Moore making it seem like he was some kind of super spy for getting those documents without the dark outs...It didn\'t even cross my mind.

There is only one kid that is a child of the senator\'s in Iraq. Moore made the point and I\'m sure all of the audience assumed that Moore isn\'t saying that nobody in the Government has a child in Iraq.

You know what Giga, Moore sure is evil. The bastard edited video\'s to fit his own purposes!! What kind of evil mastermind is he? Who would do such a thing? Who would lie to the whole country? Who would mislead his own people?

I know another person that did just the same.


Giga you will never change. Your "My IQ is higher than yours" attitude doesn\'t fit with your argument. Tell me, didn\'t Bush use the words "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" and tell me doesn\'t the word "has" imply that he does in fact have some?

If F9/11 had a story to sell. It sold it very well.

Please don\'t ask me to read "THE FACTS" because in reality those are "THE FACTS AS I SEE FIT"

[Living-In-Clip]

One question : Are you a fan of Rush, Giga? You seem like the type who calls in with the "I\'mmmm so madddd , at thoooseee damn Liberallslssss"... You know, the crazy stuck up Republican type.

OUCH!

Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
One question : Are you a fan of Rush, Giga? You seem like the type who calls in with the "I\'mmmm so madddd , at thoooseee damn Liberallslssss"... You know, the crazy stuck up Republican type.

[GmanJoe]

Originally posted by SirMystiq

Please don\'t ask me to read "THE FACTS" because in reality those are "THE FACTS AS I SEE FIT"

But you\'re dillusioned and easily manipulated by the fat guy. Smart people see through Moore\'s lies. Unfortunately for you, you\'re about as sharp as a bowling ball.

I\'m a Rush fan and I\'m proud of it.

Anyway, I saw the movie last night. It was way over the top but I expected that. Moore can lay it on with a trowel and his pure hatred for anything Bush is quite apparent and sometimes pretty funny.

The movie itself was entertaining but it will also make you sick. At least that\'s how felt after leaving it. It made me sick for a couple of of reasons. The family that lost a son in Iraq was heart wrenching but it started to feel like exploitation of this family and their tragedy. It was not fun to watch and he showed some footage that clearly shows the truth about war. Not that we need to see people blown up to know this.

Moore\'s need to turn GWB into the devil is also sickening to me. There is something very unsettling to me about the hatred for this man. I know he\'s not squeaky clean by any means but the lack of any respect for the office and the man there is just wrong to me. I can\'t put it in the right words to get my point across but I think you might know what I mean.

The funny thing is that Moore had some good questions in this movie about the connections that our leaders have to certain undesirables and the nepotism that exists. If he could see past his own bias he would make some very good movies that would make more people think rather than entrench themselves even further into there side.

That is Moore\'s whole problem - his rabid hatred for Bush is too obvious in this work.  This taints his work and destroys any shred of truth he may have had a valid point on.

The problem with certain people that watch this movie is that they are so willing to believe it.  Especially those from certain social classes who seem to be easily manipulated - the poor, uneducated and those that read comic books and think capes on superheroes are cool tend to fall into this category  You don\'t like Bush or his policies, great - but at least be able to distinguish facts from propaganda.

No LIC, I rarely listen to Rush and if that was an attempt to make a joke at my expense, it was quite weak.  Not quite as bad as your warped views of what is right and wrong though.

I think I was the only righty in the theater. By the end of the movie the natives were getting restless and I feared for my life.

Ok, Ok, that was a stretch and I could have probably kicked their asses, especially the old ladies sitting next to me.

It was kind of funny hearing the crowd, about twenty people, gasp and agree with Moore when he was just trashing GWB like a schoolyard bully making fun of some kid.

If I would have seen it in the theater I would have wished a Sir Mystiq and LIC would have been sitting close to me.  The police around here probably would helped me knock some sense into them.