Those of you who love to complain about France should read this

The French government is doing a good deal of work for us by cracking down on islamic nationalists.  It seems the United States is not the only country salivating at the thought of eroding civil liberties and freedom of speech.  Napoleonic law is a bit different from our system so it\'s hard to compare, but you get the idea.  Isn\'t this the kind of behavior you pro-war, pro-security zealots would applaud?

I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq.    Their point of view is not that hard to understand.  They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost.  Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t.  Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure.  It has had the opposite effect.

Fighting Words

France Moves Fast
To Expel Muslims
Preaching Hatred[/size]

In Bid to Pre-Empt Terror,
Nation Targets 8 Imams;
Law Hits Legal Residents
Sent to Turkey After 28 Years

By JOHN CARREYROU
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
August 9, 2004; Page A1

COURTRY, France -- Mihdat Guler was 17 years old when he moved here from his native Turkey to find work in 1976. Over time, he saved enough money to buy a tidy house in this middle-class Paris suburb, where he lived a quiet life as a legal immigrant with his wife and five children.

One afternoon three months ago, Mr. Guler learned he had overstayed his welcome. Police stopped his van as he was returning from selling sewing supplies at an outdoor market and arrested him. Within a few weeks, he was on a flight to Istanbul, unsure when he would see his family again.

The French government\'s accusation: Mr. Guler was preaching hatred and violence against the West at a Muslim prayer room in Paris. It also alleges that he belongs to a group that seeks an Islamic state in Turkey. Mr. Guler denies the government\'s allegations.
 
If Mr. Guler had been French, he would have had the chance to defend himself at a trial. But as a foreigner, he fell under a 1945 law that allowed the government to deport him as an urgent security threat.

France has taken one of the hardest lines of any Western country in fighting Islamic extremism. Other democracies, including the U.S., have been criticized for excessive methods, such as holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But few have been as systematic and zealous as France in attempting to stamp out Islamic militancy.

Mr. Guler is one of eight Muslim men France has expelled this year on the ground that they are preachers who foment anti-Western sentiment and violence in their sermons. These imams often have little religious education but a big influence over Muslim youths, the French government says.

"Today, one can no longer separate terrorist acts from the words that feed them," Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin recently told the French Council of the Muslim Faith, an organization created last year to represent the interests of France\'s Muslims.

....

In April, the Interior Ministry expelled Abdelkader Yahia Cherif, a 35-year-old Algerian who preached at a prayer room in Brest, a port city on France\'s northwestern coast. France alleged that Mr. Cherif was recruiting young Arab men to a radical brand of Islam known as Salafism, which advocates a literal, inflexible interpretation of the Quran. The government contended Mr. Cherif had incited violence in his neighborhood since arriving four years earlier, including a fire at a town hall.

The order justifying his expulsion said Mr. Cherif had rejoiced over the Madrid bombings in sermons, and cited an interview he gave to a newspaper in which he said there was "no absolute proof" Islamists had been involved in either the Sept. 11 or the Madrid attacks.

David Rajjou, Mr. Cherif\'s lawyer, says his client acknowledges being a Salafist but denies the other accusations. Mr. Cherif didn\'t intend to excuse the Sept. 11 or Madrid attacks but only to question whether Islamists were really behind them, the lawyer says.

...

There is more to the article, and I\'ll post it if anyone is interested.

[GmanJoe]

The French government\'s accusation: Mr. Guler was preaching hatred and violence against the West at a Muslim prayer room in Paris. It also alleges that he belongs to a group that seeks an Islamic state in Turkey. Mr. Guler denies the government\'s allegations.

Of course he\'d deny it.

[Titan]

Its good to see French/American relations are a bit better and that they are getting in on the good fight.

Originally posted by Coredweller
I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq.    Their point of view is not that hard to understand.  They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost.  Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t.  Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure.  It has had the opposite effect.

[GmanJoe]

I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq.  Their point of view is not that hard to understand. They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost. Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t. Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure. It has had the opposite effect.

*recalls how Israel launched an airstrike against Iraq\'s nuclear facilities coz Saddam bragged about using it against Israel*

And now Iran has missiles that can reach Israel. I say...you liberals go to Iran and rally to make them stop.

Ahhhh, they\'re just trying to get on our good side.

Originally posted by GmanJoe
*recalls how Israel launched an airstrike against Iraq\'s nuclear facilities coz Saddam bragged about using it against Israel*

And now Iran has missiles that can reach Israel. I say...you liberals go to Iran and rally to make them stop.

And I say screw Israel.  The only reason they are so belligerent toward the Palestinians is because we support them with arms and training.  If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc.  Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."

[clips]

Originally posted by Coredweller
And I say screw Israel.  The only reason they are so belligerent toward the Palestinians is because we support them with arms and training.  If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc.  Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."

that sums up the israleli/palestinian war perfectly...

Originally posted by Coredweller
If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc.  Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."

Wrong.  If we wouldn\'t have supported Israel, Israel would have been defeated in the first Arab Israeli War.  It was the Arabs (including the PALS) who jointly attacked Israel without provication.  

In addition the members of the Arab League with the exception of Jordan and Egypt (after they were defeated) have denied Israels right to exist and have sworn its destruction since its creation so for you to say they would have been forced to make peace is incorrect - it is the Arabs who have been "forced to make peace" because they had their collective asses handed to them numerous times.

The Arabs are the ones who can\'t handle the fact that a Jewish state exists in the Middle East.  You want to talk about intolerance?  

A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War

Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel\'s willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp

FOUR times they have trusted the Arabs and 4 times the Arabs have broken their promises.  Israel is completely justified in what it does and the we are justified in the support we give them.

I was not referring to the wars you cited.  BTW, they were not all as one-sided as you made them out to be.  Since the 80\'s, not even Israel required the level of military assistance we\'ve been giving them to maintain a reasonable defensive position.

I was referring to Israel\'s passive aggressive activities in the past 20 years, building settlements in the occupied territories.  Maintaining those settlements is only possible through use of overwhelming force, and they serve no purpose except to increase the tension and piss off arabs.  BOTH sides of this conflict have thrown away opportunities to create a stable border and build a long lasting peace.  One side COULD have made it happen if they had tried harder and not had the benefit of our endless logistical assistance.

You are mistaken.  The Arabs pissed away their chances numerous times and you have to go back beyond 20 years to gain an appreciation for the situation.  Limiting yourself some imaginary 20 year window is not realistic when they have fought 4 wars 30 years before that!  The Arabs still vow to destroy Israel - Iraq did under Saddam, Syria and even Iran have pledged to do so.

The really ironic part (I have said this before on these forums) is that the PALS had the best of everything prior to launching their offensive with the help of other Arab nations.  

The PALS had the best land and a majority of it - they wanted it all and now have nothing - they should receive to pity for their intolerance and greed.  Arafat has vowed to destroy Israel again and again and you want Israel to compromise with him? :rolleyes:



If I were the Israeli\'s I wouldn\'t trust the Arabs either as they have proven to be dishonest and hostile time and again over the simple right of Israel\'s existance.

I hope Iran launches a few missiles at Israel...

Then, Israel can obliterate them...

I am waiting for Israel to launch a pre emptive strike on Iran\'s nuclear development facilities in the very near future.

I am waiting for Israel to launch a pre emptive strike on Iran\'s nuclear development facilities in the very near future.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
The really ironic part (I have said this before on these forums) is that the PALS had the best of everything prior to launching their offensive with the help of other Arab nations.  

The PALS had the best land and a majority of it - they wanted it all and now have nothing - they should receive to pity for their intolerance and greed.  Arafat has vowed to destroy Israel again and again and you want Israel to compromise with him? :rolleyes:

If I were the Israeli\'s I wouldn\'t trust the Arabs either as they have proven to be dishonest and hostile time and again over the simple right of Israel\'s existance.

So to your way of thinking, the Arabs will endlessly kill Jews, and the Jews should endlessly kill Arabs?  Can\'t change an Arab, so what point is there?  Let\'s just keep pouring weapons into Israel and see what happens.... ?

BOTH SIDES have thrown away opportunities at peace, not just the arabs.  I agree there are many arabs who would like to overrun Israel.  There is also an conservative orthodox group in Israel that hates arabs and would very much like to wipe them out as well.  

Making points like "It\'s their own fault" and "They made their bed now they can sleep in it" are useless statements.  They don\'t solve the problem.  Some day someone is going to have to step up and take a rational action to end this nonsense.  Someone is going to have to concede something to resolve it.  I agree that we can\'t count on the Palestinians to do that.  They don\'t have the leadership and administrative structure to make it stick.  That means the Israelis have to do it.  Even if it\'s not fair, or it makes them look weak, THEY HAVE TO DO IT.