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Author Topic: PS3 specs, facts, speculations and rumours !  (Read 27982 times)

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2006, 02:01:34 AM »
Summary / Partial Transcript Of The Following Webcast:
NVIDIA Corporation at Morgan Stanley Semiconductor & Systems Conference (Replay)


03/07/06 at 8:45 a.m. PT

...Comments on RSX-PS3...

Quote

- Misc ramblings about how cool NVIDIA is and how much it is one of the analyst\'s favorites companies.
- Focus (has been for a while) on the intersection between Consumer Electronics and Computing
- ASPs have increased over the course of the last 10 years
- The dynamic (and thus ASPs) has the opportunity to stay the same.

- Organized in 4 business units.
-- GPUs are our largest business unit.
- Associated Brand: "GeForce", one of the best known technology brands in the world.
-- MCPs are our fastest growing business unit in terms of dollars.
- Grew 100% last year. 300M Revenue annually. On good track to improve 100% again.
- Associated Brand: nForce. Voted number 1 brand for corelogic, and not Intel!
-- Professionnal Solutions Business
- Sell stuff to content PROVIDERS for other people using our GPUs. But also for films!
- Associated Brand: Quadro. Made its way into basically ALL GPU-related workstations.
-- Handheld Business, with 3G Cellphones as target last year, 3GSM this year too.
- Customers: Sony Ericsson with their Walkman Phone, Motorola with their 3G Razor.
- Target: Smart phones, portable game/content players (PSP/IPOD/GAMEBOY-like).
- Very fast growing business, higher in relative terms but lower in absolute terms than MCPs thus.

- For the 4 businesses: PCs, Game Consoles, Handset, Car Navigation Systems, etc.
- Don\'t do "basic" (unhearable) CE devices, not sufficiently complex to fit in our expertise.
- Market of $20-30B, expansion with multimedia => growth opportunities.
- About possibility of becoming a $10B company: "Most people thought it\'d be pretty tough to be a $500M company".
- Don\'t think in those concepts. Company can become very large if you work on sufficiently value-added things
- And you need to have a management team and a culture that can sustain that growth. Not much more complicated than that.
- Benefit of our business: people love to work for us just because they can help building amazing things.

- [bunch of gibberish about our position being better this year, SLI being pwnage, etc. etc.]
- Last year, our MCP business grew 100% exclusively on nForce4 Discrete Core Logic.
- So there is a LOT, LOT of room with integrated core logic!
- Both of those designs are going to get OEM design wins we were really weak on last year.
- Weak OEM position, especially so with the US OEMs. Coming into this year, we are at 20-25% (GPU&MCP)
- Expecting to much more than double, or possibly triple, their marketshare in OEMs as we leave our
- That\'s for desktop, notebook, etc. - was first to market. So all that is ramping right now through spring
- So expecting IGP, New OEM Design Wins, etc.; continuing progressive growth.
- Expecting good Q1 & Q2 thanks to share gains etc. => seasonality will be countered [partially?]

- Desktop and Notebook markets are radically different, because of DIFFERENT CYCLES mostly.
- Desktop PC is more modular => The desktop cycle lags the notebook cycle by 3 to 4 to 5 months.
- So you\'ve got to release earlier, or you don\'t get the market.
- Also limited by physical space and power/heat properties. So it has to focus on performance-per-watt.
- Performance-Per-Watt has doubled [between GF6 & GF7]
- HD Decoding requires 20-25x more processing power.
- So CPUs are likely to struggle, especially so if you care about power/heat
- As such, that\'s a further advantage for the notebook market.
- Overall, we think it\'s gonna be a "pretty good year for us in notebooks".

- My sense is that our US OEM Notebook share is 10%, OEM Global Notebook share is around 20+%.
- Hoping we can "triple that, double to triple that" as we leave the year.

- [Vista: misc. ramblings about GPU importance]
- [Vista: the interface is really nice, according to Jen Hsun Huang]
- Vista has the ability to have applets taking advantage of the GPU [so it\'ll help over time too for adoption.]
- Any application that wants programmable access to the GPU now has it. Potential big usage shift.
- [misc. other Vista-related rambling and generalities about ASPs thus remaining stable]

- BluRay vs HD-DVD: "It\'s really hard to say". But PS3 BluRay => Highest Volume Media By The End Of This Year.
- Almost all movie studios have backed Bluray, some back both though. So the content will be there.
- Jen Hsun\'s Reminder: "The Matrix DVD was the PS2 Killer App". If Sony backs BR properly, it\'s the "program\'s conclusion".

- "So I think your RSX full production silicon is ready" - "Yeh."
- "Sony is manufacturing RSX in their own fabs, as well as Toshiba fabs"
- "Our focus now is on diesize reduction and bring up more fabs"
- In terms of our economic relationship with Sony, it has 3 parts:
--- NRA: "We are signed up to build the RSX for Sony, to port RSX to multiple fabs to increase the capacity."
- Had the think in terms of being able to build 30M units a year. Needed to potentially repeat the PS2 success.
- Tons of different fabs needed to reach that capacity, so it\'s a lot of work.
- For us, we\'re also signed up to do cost reduction to new processes.
-- Also working on making the RSX more prevelant at Sony. RSX+CELL = Digital Architecture for Sony.
- So they want to use that architecture in all kinds of things, among which HD Video-related.
- Look at PS2: Two huge chips back one, One small chip that\'s hardly costing anything now.
- So, have to "reimplement the RSX" within the next 10 years into all those kinds of digital devices.
- Considered to be a 50% Margins Business.
--- License Element of the PS3: Extra fixed licensing revenue every quarter for 3 years.
- Been recognizing that for a couple of quarters now.
- That applies to the PS3, but also the use of RSX Technology in "all of these other platforms".
--- Royalty Component, as they ship our technology in each of these platforms.
- That element of our business hasn\'t started yet.
- But lead time ahead of when you might see boxes in the market. [Uttar: Reminder: They said June/July for Royalties]
--- System is structured so that licensing revenue is likely to stop when royalty revenue peaks.
- "In the front of the life of the PS3, it\'s all NRA and it\'s all fixed license fees"
- "So that\'s why we\'re seeing the benefits of Sony and PS3 pretty substantially this year"
- "The PSP is really one the last 3D devices that will be built inhouse by anybody on the planet"
- "Nobody has invested beyond Texture Mapping [that is, besides the industry-only companies, thus Intel kinda]"
- "Not one vertically integrated company has invested in internal programmable shading architecture - ever."
- It was a huge discontinuity in investment, so from his pov, it doesn\'t make sense without volumes like theirs.
- "Our technology is pretty open market, and we\'re delighted to sell to anybody who wants to buy it".
- So it seems illogical to want to reinvent it.

- "Well we hope that... uhm... yeah, we would like that... uh.... we would be ecstatic to work on
future generation game consoles and, uhm, you know, whether it\'s be... uh... uhm... gameboy or PSP, the
volumes are just so enormous... and... hum... and it\'s always fun to have in your pocket something you built."

- "As you know, the foundries did a great job with 90 - and I think the reason for that is that 130 was so hard,
90 is, uhm, 90 is, uhm, I don\'t think it\'s easy but it seems like a wall in the park for them. So, we are
ramping up 90 pretty aggressively... Our 7900, the new high-end is 90, the 7600 which is the follow-up to our
really really successful 6600 is a 90... and, uhm, 7300 is a 90. We have integrated core logic going on in the 90
- "And very quickly we\'ll be doing a shrink in the 80 for cost improvement reasons, but basically it\'s the
same process. Most of our new desgins [unhearable] in the pipeline are 65 so, uhm, we are investing in
65 now and 55 very shortly after that."

- NV50-related...
- "Increasing flexibility of the programmability, enabling the artists to express themselves in a free way."
- "Our next generation product will just take [effects] to a brand new level"
- "Our next generation product is the combination of 3 years of heavy-duty work. We started architecting it about 4 years ago, and, you know, my best calculations have this investing $250M into it already, and by the time it launches as well as the entire product family, we will have invested about $500M in R&D."
- "It is a spectacular computing machine and, uhm, we can\'t wait to show it to you later this year".
- "And this year, along with Vista, is going to introduce a very important new API, it\'s called DX10"
- "And DX10 is just a giant leap forward in unifying the way people program graphics. Instead of, you know,"
"vertices, and shaders and textures, it\'s unified in a very elegant way. And it\'s unified in a way that
"makes it possible for us to abstract [GPU] programming to the next level."
- "Our DX10 [part] is nearly finished now, and uhm, it\'ll be rolled out this year sometime."
- "And, uhm, if I have my way, our next generation GPU will be the first DX10 GPU in the world."


Thanks to beyond3d for the info !
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline fastson
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« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2006, 03:21:29 AM »
Awesome info, thanks.

So PS3 might be out by May-July? Interesting.
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
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Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #152 on: March 09, 2006, 05:38:02 AM »
but with what games?Nothing seems ready for a may-july launch.Pretty awkward
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 05:39:25 AM by Unicron! »

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2006, 06:17:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
but with what games?Nothing seems ready for a may-july launch.Pretty awkward


In Jap ? There\'s a chance for summer...I think...

...and E3 will give all of us a clear indication :D
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #154 on: March 09, 2006, 03:43:10 PM »
Well I hope they have a mindblowing unexpected surprise for us at E3 ;)

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2006, 12:02:48 PM »
The Soul of Cell...have a nice reading, so interesting :)

If you’ve been following my ongoing commentary on the Cell Broadband Engine, then you realize that I\'ve been fairly critical of the architecture and its implementation in the third iteration of Sony\'s PlayStation console. Not wanting to be an ignorant critic on the subject, I presented Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, chief architect of the Cell Synergistic Processor, with a handful of questions that he graciously answered.

Do you have an analogy for how data is manipulated by the Cell Broadband Engine? How is the Cell\'s process of internal data manipulation different from general purpose processors?

Stanford\'s Bill Dally has a nice analogy that explains the memory wall problem processors have run into. Imagine doing a plumbing project ... you start and you see you need a pipe ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a pipe, and you discover you need a fitting ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a fitting ... and discover you need solder ... (etc.) very inefficient! When microprocessors started memory was just a few processor cycles away ... similar to having all you need in the cupboard. Today, main (DRAM) memory is hundreds of processors cycles away ... and getting things is like a drive across town to the plumbing store. What do you need to do when your supply is far away? Make a shopping list! This is exactly what the SPEs in Cell enable you to do. Instead of getting data from main memory right when you discover it is needed, you construct a list of what you need, and kick off a (DMA) processor that gets it for you. You can even create multiple lists, both of supplies you need, and stuff you\'re done with and want to put out there, so that you can always keep working.

What do you see as the inherent problem with current architectures? PowerPC? x86? SPARC? How does the Cell Broadband Engine address these shortcomings?

The main problem with current architectures is the memory wall I explained above. Because the programs do not provide shopping lists, the only way to get more than one thing on the way from main memory is to guess ahead at what may be needed, a very difficult thing to do. Another analogy ... at 512 cycles latency, say, to main memory, an 8 byte interface, and a 64byte memory access size, and a fully pipelined interface at the processor frequency, you need 64 64-byte memory accesses in flight to fully utilize the available memory bandwidth. Most processors support only a handful. This looks like a situation where you have a bucket brigade with 64 people, but only a handful of buckets ... no way you will see efficient use of the people. This phenomenon is the reason that Cell achieves nearly two orders of magnitude better performance on applications where the problem comes down to collecting data from memory in a pattern that can be calculated, but isn\'t so trivial the hardware can guess it. A lot of problems are like that: fast Fourier transforms, volume rendering, raycasting and raytracing, and many others.

Some other problems, like the fact that single thread processor performance isn\'t improving as fast as it used to, and the fact that almost all systems are really limited in their performance by the power the system allows, can, and are being addressed by building multi-core chips. Cell is multi-core, but what is unique about it is the fact that it has two different types of cores sharing memory, which allowed us to optimize each more for their own tasks.

How many workable processor designs were discarded before resting on the final design of the Cell Broadband Engine? Did you find any patent issues constraining while working on the processor design?

In the first year in the design center we built a fully functional SPU (SPE minus the DMA unit). Much of it was ok, but there was still much to improve, so we changed a bunch of things, like the local store size. Towards the end of the first year we redid much of the chip architecture, making the chip much more programmable, fixing things (our first version of real-time partitioning was not what we wanted), and introducing new elements, like the security architecture. After that we mainly changed the chip configuration (like the number of SPEs) as we learned more about what would fit on a chip and how to best balance the chip and make it manufacturable.

IBM has a vast experience in microprocessors and a deep patent portfolio, and much of what we did was new ... there are 100s of new patents that resulted from this project ... not too many constraints. Some other things were really very old ... so not too much of a problem there either.

Could you elaborate on the internal workings and design of the Synergistic Processor Elements? Could you contrast the design of these specialized processors to the Power Processor Element?

The Power processor element (PPE) is a more conventional architecture ... it brings instructions and data in as they are needed. It relies on caches (cupboards) for good performance. A task like running the operating system runs well on the Power processor, and often we will use the PPE to define the work. The Power processor also guarantees us that it is easy to get started with Cell, as Cell is fully Power architecture compliant. The SPEs do not have a cache, but instead bring data from shared memory into a local store memory before operating on it. To make this work well, you tend to have to restructure your code (and bring out the shopping lists), but when you do so, the performance tends to be very high. So the two processors nicely complement one another.

How do you feel about backwards compatibility between processor generations? Does the need for backwards compatibility necessarily stifle innovation?

We had about 5 years to do the project, and we felt that without some form of backward compatibility, it would likely have taken us 10 years. By building on what already works well, the Power architecture and the operating systems, compilers, applications etc. that come with it, we could get a flying start. It may have seemed a little bit constraining in the very beginning, but we realized very quickly that building on Power really freed us up to work on the new things we cared about, like real-time, and the SPEs, and security etc., rather than hold us back. Again, the hundreds of patents I think are testimony to this.

What is your personal vision of the "ultimate processor design?" How does the current incarnation of the Cell Broadband Engine figure into your vision?

Actually, one of the nice things about the job of a processor architect is that the "ultimate" processor design does not exist! 25 years ago, when main memory was close, Cell would have been a really dumb idea, but when "main memory" was a spinning drum, decades before that, Cell could have looked pretty good! It is the job of the architect to respond to the ever changing physical realities, and best bridge these realities to where the programmers can take over and do their thing.

For now, I am really happy with Cell, and we should not change things too fast, so that we do not outrun the software community. Still, architects have to think pretty far ahead, since it takes a good while to build a new processor, so we are already beginning to think about what might come after this, and how to build on the ideas that were introduced in Cell. We believe it is very possible to build on these ideas, just like we built on Power when we introduced Cell, and get a very compelling result.

There it is, straight from the Cell chief scientist himself. I am never convinced of anything until I see it in action for myself, but I\'m fascinated by the concepts and analogies. I look forward to the closer look we’ll all get at this extraordinary technology when we welcome Sony’s next wonder into our living rooms.

http://sixteenbit.blogspot.com/
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #156 on: March 13, 2006, 01:59:08 AM »
FFXI fans asked, creators answered !

Still no finalized PS3 in the hands of FF creators ? ...maybe they have but can\'t tell anything about ?

Quote
...The developers also responded to inquiries on the PS3 version of FFXI: "Right now, we still don\'t know what type of machine the PS3 is, so we are waiting on Sony to finalize the hardware before we can make that decision." An end of the year launch for Sony\'s next console is looking more and more likely.


http://gamecube.joystiq.com/2006/03/12/ffxi-fans-asked-creators-answered/
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline Paul2

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« Reply #157 on: March 13, 2006, 04:13:08 AM »
well, the interview does sounds hot and all, but as I have learned from ps2 lessons.  I have to take hype less seriously now.  Its good to know it, but don\'t feed up with it too much.

Offline fastson
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« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2006, 04:25:20 AM »
Quote from: BizioEE
FFXI fans asked, creators answered !

Still no finalized PS3 in the hands of FF creators ? ...maybe they have but can\'t tell anything about ?



http://gamecube.joystiq.com/2006/03/12/ffxi-fans-asked-creators-answered/


I think they mean they don\'t know if Sony will release a hard drive as a standard device on the PS3. Sony hasn\'t officially said if the HDD is standard or if its an add on.

Here is what the question looked like
Quote
Q: Are there any plans for Final Fantasy XI development for the PlayStation 3?
A: Right now, we still don\'t know what type of machine the PS3 is, so we are waiting on Sony to finalize the hardware before we can make that decision.


Maybe they know the answer but cant say since it hasn\'t been made official by Sony.
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Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #159 on: March 13, 2006, 05:12:17 AM »
Quote from: fastson
I think they mean they don\'t know if Sony will release a hard drive as a standard device on the PS3. Sony hasn\'t officially said if the HDD is standard or if its an add on.

Here is what the question looked like


Maybe they know the answer but cant say since it hasn\'t been made official by Sony.


well, maybe you get it, the HDD should be the only key factor,and maybe it\'s built-in but there\'s no official words from Sony...so their lips are sealed...
...getting too curious...must know it on 15th of March :D
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 05:13:22 AM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #160 on: March 14, 2006, 11:35:38 AM »
Copy protection technology related to their Blu-ray disc drive is the cause of the delay ?!

Sony Delays PlayStation 3
Blu-ray forcing the machine into hiding until November.


Quote

 
Sony has been anything but talkative these past few months regarding their plans for PlayStation 3. No one except Sony seemed to anticipate they\'d continue to meet their projected spring release date in any territory, even Japan.
Today, Sony officially conceded defeat to the recent flurry of rumors and speculation, with Japanese newspaper Nihon Keizai Shimbun reporting the company has confirmed the machine has been pushed back until November.

There aren\'t many details out right now, but Sony says copy protection technology related to their Blu-ray disc drive is the cause of the delay.

As the news is coming out of Japan, that creates a worrisome scenario for America and Europe. There was already rumblings Sony wouldn\'t be able to launch in all territories before the end of the year, but missing out on the Christmas season over here could prove a deadly blow to Sony\'s next-generation plans.

Somewhere in Microsoft\'s offices, Bill Gates just opened a bottle of champagne. With more details expected at tomorrow\'s PlayStation conference and the Game Developers Conference just around the corner, it appears the flood gates (for good or ill) are about to be unleashed.


http://1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148763

I don\'t care, I\'ll save money to buy more and better launch games !
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 11:44:46 AM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline Viper_Fujax

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« Reply #161 on: March 14, 2006, 11:46:39 AM »
November 2006= January 2007
You\'re never too old to burn to death in a fire

Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #162 on: March 14, 2006, 11:52:15 AM »
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
November 2006= January 2007

I am sure Sony will do anything possible to release it before January.Christmass its a great period for selling products

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #163 on: March 14, 2006, 11:53:54 AM »
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
November 2006= January 2007


I wanna wait till tomorrow...

...it\'s not official, but it\'s from a Japanese business newspaper, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun...

Quote
Six month delay caused by unresolved technical issues with Blu-Ray

One of Japan\'s leading newspapers, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun, is reporting in its Wednesday morning edition that the PlayStation 3 console has been delayed to November due to unresolved issues with the Blu-Ray technology.

According to the paper, the problem lies with the copy protection system used by Blu-Ray, details of which have not yet been finalised - which will now cause a delay of some six months to Sony\'s PS3 plans.

Sony has always maintained that the PS3 will launch in spring of this year, but most industry commentators and third-party publishers are currently anticipating US and Japanese launches late in 2006, followed by a European launch in early 2007.




http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=15354
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 12:11:03 PM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline clips

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« Reply #164 on: March 14, 2006, 01:51:27 PM »
why haven\'t we seen anything in terms of games yet?...i didn\'t read any of the info above, but at this point we should be seeing the progress of some games being worked on since last year correct?...it\'s usually a bad sign when companies don\'t show progress...regardless of the hype...ps3 can have all the fancy tech it wants, but bottomline if the games are garbage all that superior technology means nothing....
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