Happy Memorial Day

Um...what the fuck are you talking about? I took a nationalism class this past semester and nationalism never destroyed a country. You had different nations an ethnicities fight for a country in civil war but no country has ever been destroyed because of nationalism. In fact, it more often solidified a country or started new countries and nations. And nations are rarely destroyed except through war and even that was extremely rare. Of anything, it rallied other nations together that were similar to the nations warring and created allies, kind of like the French, English and Americans against the Germans.

You are not the only one who has been told in school how good nationalism is. There is not a single country in the world that tries to teach you otherwise. Because if they do, its like turning you against your "country" or better your country\'s government who wants you to be "patriotic". Any other notion will deem you "unpatriotic" and will be isolated and mocked.

[Titan]

You are not the only one who has been told in school how good nationalism is. There is not a single country in the world that tries to teach you otherwise. Because if they do, its like turning you against your "country" or better your country\'s government who wants you to be "patriotic". Any other notion will deem you "unpatriotic" and will be isolated and mocked.

Honestly Unicron, what are you talking about? I never had nationalism or patriotism beaten into my head in school. Maybe on a subtle level but there came a point in everyones lives here that patriotism was a choice. I know people that don\'t have that patriotic spirit and I know people that are gunho about their country. I consider myself patriotic because my dad is in the military. I\'m not your typical American patriot but I take great pride in my country and have two flags in the windows of my car. I hold American ideals but don\'t necessarily follow the status quo. I believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the ideals given to us by our forefathers but I\'m not so crazy as to run off to any war that our president sends us to (i.e. Iraq). Infact, I think our president is a dumbass. I support Obama even though Obama supporters are deemed "unAmerican". I think Obama is more American than Bush but that is a different argument. Anyone who blindly follows nationalism is ignorant I feel but most people are rational enough not to act so crazy (though that is probably debatable). Most peopel I know won\'t go running off to war but will still think this country is better than the rest.

I took a class on global nationalism, not just in my country. We studied cases such as the Serbian states, France, Russia, England, Germany, the nationalism in the Ottoman Empire that broke it apart, etc.

Honestly Unicron, what are you talking about? I never had nationalism or patriotism beaten into my head in school. Maybe on a subtle level but there came a point in everyones lives here that patriotism was a choice. I know people that don\'t have that patriotic spirit and I know people that are gunho about their country. I consider myself patriotic because my dad is in the military. I\'m not your typical American patriot but I take great pride in my country and have two flags in the windows of my car. I hold American ideals but don\'t necessarily follow the status quo. I believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the ideals given to us by our forefathers but I\'m not so crazy as to run off to any war that our president sends us to (i.e. Iraq). Infact, I think our president is a dumbass. I support Obama even though Obama supporters are deemed "unAmerican". I think Obama is more American than Bush but that is a different argument. Anyone who blindly follows nationalism is ignorant I feel but most people are rational enough not to act so crazy (though that is probably debatable). Most peopel I know won\'t go running off to war but will still think this country is better than the rest.

I took a class on global nationalism, not just in my country. We studied cases such as the Serbian states, France, Russia, England, Germany, the nationalism in the Ottoman Empire that broke it apart, etc.

I am not judging you. My post is generally speaking and not trying to criticize you. this can be directed to everyone regardless of nationality. Actually I believe that we may be saying the same thing.

What I am saying is that we should always question ourselves and how we follow certain values. Even if we believe we are doing the right thing, or that we are following values and morals the right way, we should keep questioning them. Many times people have fought for what they believed was right but many times they did not understand that what they saw was only the surface. The result was either their own oppression or someone else\'s but they could not see it because they thought they were still fighting for what they believed was right. For example the Nazi\'s did not have much different views from the ones you expressed (which are also similar to mine)  no matter how strange it may sound.

The same things you and I may believe in do not differ much from the same things ignorant people may claim they believe in either. The thing is, these values can be used and manipulated. We are all victims of one form of propaganda or the other. But we cant always notice it. And when we convince ourselves that WE are in a better shape than the OTHERS we make ourselves vulnerable.

We become victims of the same status quo we are against of but we cant see it.

If we forget for once about nationalism or our national "identity" and be just observers of everything, including the country we are supposed to belong in, we would notice that our country and ourselves do not differ much from those we are being taught as being bad examples.

For example do not expect in your country to be taught about the dark side of it. Or another example we should not expect that the Turkish are being taught in the same way about the Ottoman empire as you and Greeks (me) are being taught about it and vise versa. There are many contradictions, often may accuse each other in their history books, but paradoxically they all claim to follow the same values and morals. We should not expect that Russians are being taught about their Russian or the US history in the same way you are being taught about it in your courses.

We shou;d question everything that is related to nationalism or history, because as I grow, meet people and read things beyond the scope of general acceptance the more I realize how subjective and manipulated knowledge can be, and I realize that we may know nothing and that we do not question ourselves as often as we should have.

Rarely do people accept the dark and inconvenient truths. And I understand that both you and I may not be much different than them.

But I will point to one last thing that captures the whole idea in a few questions:
"will still think this country is better than the rest"
1) Is it?
2) Taking into consideration the first question, do you think this is good for the country (or anyone\'s country) even if its people do not go to war?
3) Isnt it what others believe about their countries as well? Who is right? And why should we accept this impression knowing that it is something common and not unique to our own identity thus not factual but fabricated?

[Jumpman]

Jumpman:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nAMFWDuDEI

Jumpman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nAMFWDuDEI

[Jumpman]

Morrissey...so emo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Luci7PNs8j0

[Titan]

I think the Billy Madison vid better suits Unicron\'s last long post.

[clips]

I understand what uni is sayin\' and it\'s true every country that goes to war, will always think that it\'s actions are justified and the people of the country most of the time will rally behind the decision...every country has some sort of national pride that goes along with it....but the problems arise when the said country thinks the other country is evil or that it\'s not treating it\'s people to what it deems to be sufficient standards....

One can look no further than the iraq war to see how that thing was manipulated from the jump,...but if you keep pumping all sorts of false agenda on the screen, sooner or later the masses will soon begin to believe it...*except me of course*.......but that is a tired subject already and is neither here nor there,...both uni & titan made some solid points...


I believe the fact that you must question issues that don\'t sit right with you,..i knew that going to war was going to be a huge mistake....no matter how much bush tried to sell it,..i knew it was a wrong move,..and now bush is just sitting in cruise control until the next prez takes over his iraq catastropy...

Uni, big posts don\'t make you appear intelligent. They only serve to magnify your ignorance.

In fact, your whole post could of been summed up with a friggin\' X-Files tag line.

" Question everything. "

For example the Nazi\'s did not have much different views from the ones you expressed (which are also similar to mine) no matter how strange it may sound.

 A rabid degree of nationalism can be a bad thing , but that can be said for anything. It isn\'t the act itself, it\'s the person or people. Some people need things to cling to and that may be pride for their country or even religion (or both!). It isn\'t brainwashing, it\'s just fact that some people need that and are more acceptable to it.

If we forget for once about nationalism or our national "identity" and be just observers of everything, including the country we are supposed to belong in, we would notice that our country and ourselves do not differ much from those we are being taught as being bad examples.

If you simply observe, you don\'t act. If you don\'t act, things don\'t happen. It really is basic. If we simply observed in WW2 - where would we be now? If we simply observed the fact that African American people sat at the back of the bus - where would they be sitting now (back of the bus, for you slow people!). Yes, observe before you act, but you can\'t just sit and observe. A country can\'t sit and observe.

There are many contradictions, often may accuse each other in their history books, but paradoxically they all claim to follow the same values and morals. We should not expect that Russians are being taught about their Russian or the US history in the same way you are being taught about it in your courses

History is nothing more than a recording by man of what happened. You can\'t expect perfection and yes, each nation will have a slightly different slanted view. However, the very basic and fundmental facts will remain. Pearl Habor was bombed. There was a holocaust. The French are cowards. These things remain, no matter how you slant it and with these very basic and fundmental things, a logical person can draw their own conclusion on who was on the right and who was on the wrong side.


To sum it all up, your argument, while may seem valid is actually fairly flawed. It can be applied to anything. I mean anything. You\'re whole thing is question everything (duh) and look at the other side of the fence. While that may seem deep, it is in fact the most basic of things.

And with all that said, nationalism is an idea. It\'s a basic belief of morals and code that you believe the people of your nation up hold. If you believe in that, then you have a sense of nationalism. There will be rabid people, but there are basic people also.

One can look no further than the iraq war to see how that thing was manipulated from the jump,...but if you keep pumping all sorts of false agenda on the screen, sooner or later the masses will soon begin to believe it...*except me of course*.......but that is a tired subject already and is neither here nor there,...both uni & titan made some solid points...

Some people support the Iraq war and some don\'t. I\'m willing to believe that more people don\'t support it. Why? Because people, despite all the mass media, can still make their own choice. And the ones that do believe it are entirely entitled to that belief.

Also we can\'t out right say the war an Iraq is a failure or "catastropy" yet, due to the simple fact we can\'t see beyond our removal from Iraq. Give it time, let us remove our troops and see how Iraq progresses and then, ten years from now, we can look back and judge if it was a failure or if in the end, some greater good was done. That\'s hard to swallow, because as humans, we want immediate results, but that simply does not happen on a national level.

[clips]

If you simply observe, you don\'t act. If you don\'t act, things don\'t happen. It really is basic. If we simply observed in WW2 - where would we be now? If we simply observed the fact that African American people sat at the back of the bus - where would they be sitting now (back of the bus, for you slow people!). Yes, observe before you act, but you can\'t just sit and observe. A country can\'t sit and observe.

I think what uni was trying to say in general is that if we become observers instead of being accusers and learn to respect other cultures...*some didn\'t agree with saddam\'s iron-hand rule, but you see the chaos that has formed since his removal*...other cultures operate differently from ours and just because we don\'t like it, does not give us the right to change it....but i can\'t deny what you stated here either because it truly is paramont,...if somebody didn\'t take a stand back then who knows where we as african americans or just as americans in general would be if everybody indeed just observed and did nothing....

Some people support the Iraq war and some don\'t. I\'m willing to believe that more people don\'t support it. Why? Because people, despite all the mass media, can still make their own choice. And the ones that do believe it are entirely entitled to that belief.

Also we can\'t out right say the war an Iraq is a failure or "catastropy" yet, due to the simple fact we can\'t see beyond our removal from Iraq. Give it time, let us remove our troops and see how Iraq progresses and then, ten years from now, we can look back and judge if it was a failure or if in the end, some greater good was done. That\'s hard to swallow, because as humans, we want immediate results, but that simply does not happen on a national level.

That\'s a fair shake....it just gets to me sometimes when i see how young some of these cats are that are dyin\' over there,...and when you see videos of them while they\'re in iraq or right before they died,..they always truly believe that they are doing the right thing...i just didn\'t like how the war went from finding wmd\'s to liberating the iraqi people which i\'m sure was the farthest thing from the bush administration, but yea....maybe indirectly somehow some good will become of all this,...because i certaintly do not want us to fail over there,..i just felt that there was no great emergency to remove saddam in the first place,...and if you\'re going to use the troops,..it should\'ve been for a more critical reason...

Imo bush just invaded iraq because he saw somebody that he could take easily and at the same time intimdate some of those terrorists and probably have an ally in iraq and to also have a solid foothold in the middleast...i\'m sure at some point iraq will fix itself, but the u.s. cannot afford to keep spending 12 million dollars a month....we\'ll see how it turns out tho...

.....

You are only repeating the same things I ve said.

the only difference is that I am asking for people to be more aware of their self and their surroundings when it comes to nationalism even when they think they are doing things right, by constantly questioning them.

The second difference is that I view nationalism as something redundant but we have been taught that it is something necessary on purpose. I view it as a perceptual barrier by nature, and I dont see the other side unlike how you are trying to put it. The other side is an illusion that governments throughout the world need to feed in order to protect theirselves such as their land integrity and their resources. It is a result of insecurity due to imperialism. Values, morals and love for knowledge, which are elements often falsely linked to patriotism and nationalism, can exist by themselves. You do not need patriotism or nationalism to fight for those in your everyday life.

Even now if someone comes up with indisputable facts about things our countries or forefathers have done, that completely contradict what we have been taught in school about them, the morals and values we have falsely linked to patriotism and nationalism etc we will outright shoot them down unless we experience them directly.

What is common to everyone though regardless of patriotism and their nationality is care for people and knowledge and this is where citizens should concentrate at and this should expand beyond the borders of their country. Nationalism and patriotism for me are redundant and set barriers to people\'s perception and thus their actions even if they do not go to war, claim they do not blindly support their government and question some of its actions.

I think what uni was trying to say in general is that if we become observers instead of being accusers and learn to respect other cultures...*some didn\'t agree with saddam\'s iron-hand rule, but you see the chaos that has formed since his removal*...other cultures operate differently from ours and just because we don\'t like it, does not give us the right to change it....but i can\'t deny what you stated here either because it truly is paramont,...if somebody didn\'t take a stand back then who knows where we as african americans or just as americans in general would be if everybody indeed just observed and did nothing....

Clips I am not asking you to be nothing more than a passive citizen when I say "be an observer". You have put things in my mouth. There are people globally who are trying to be observers but are constantly active both in their everyday lives and beyond.They are trying to make people know and they are more active than us. Unlike them we are just sitting in our homes listening to news and government announcements claiming we are supporting our country and our soldiers. We are more passive already.

Btw I am not using Iraq as an example by any means. The same discussion I have done with people from different nationalities before the war in Iraq. I am saying this just in case I am misunderstood that I use the war in Iraq as an example.

One last thing. We say that people are bound to know one way or the other in the future. I say there are still many things we think we know. And even if do find out we should ask ourselves "how on earth did we fall for that? Who says we are not going to fall for it again?"

You are only repeating the same things I ve said.

the only difference is that I am asking for people to be more aware of their self and their surroundings when it comes to nationalism even when they think they are doing things right, by constantly questioning them.

The second difference is that I view nationalism as something redundant but we have been taught that it is something necessary on purpose. I view it as a perceptual barrier by nature, and I dont see the other side unlike how you are trying to put it. The other side is an illusion that governments throughout the world need to feed in order to protect theirselves such as their land integrity and their resources. It is a result of insecurity due to imperialism. Values, morals and love for knowledge, which are elements often falsely linked to patriotism and nationalism, can exist by themselves. You do not need patriotism or nationalism to fight for those in your everyday life.

Even now if someone comes up with indisputable facts about things our countries or forefathers have done, that completely contradict what we have been taught in school about them, the morals and values we have falsely linked to patriotism and nationalism etc we will outright shoot them down unless we experience them directly.

What is common to everyone though regardless of patriotism and their nationality is care for people and knowledge and this is where citizens should concentrate at and this should expand beyond the borders of their country. Nationalism and patriotism for me are redundant and set barriers to people\'s perception and thus their actions even if they do not go to war, claim they do not blindly support their government and question some of its actions.



Clips I am not asking you to be nothing more than a passive citizen when I say "be an observer". You have put things in my mouth. There are people globally who are trying to be observers but are constantly active both in their everyday lives and beyond.They are trying to make people know and they are more active than us. Unlike them we are just sitting in our homes listening to news and government announcements claiming we are supporting our country and our soldiers. We are more passive already.

Btw I am not using Iraq as an example by any means. The same discussion I have done with people from different nationalities before the war in Iraq. I am saying this just in case I am misunderstood that I use the war in Iraq as an example.

One last thing. We say that people are bound to know one way or the other in the future. I say there are still many things we think we know. And even if do find out we should ask ourselves "how on earth did we fall for that? Who says we are not going to fall for it again?"

......
z...zz...

Uh?
What?

Sorry, I fell asleep while reading your post.

[clips]

Clips I am not asking you to be nothing more than a passive citizen when I say "be an observer". You have put things in my mouth. There are people globally who are trying to be observers but are constantly active both in their everyday lives and beyond.They are trying to make people know and they are more active than us. Unlike them we are just sitting in our homes listening to news and government announcements claiming we are supporting our country and our soldiers. We are more passive already.

Btw I am not using Iraq as an example by any means. The same discussion I have done with people from different nationalities before the war in Iraq. I am saying this just in case I am misunderstood that I use the war in Iraq as an example.

One last thing. We say that people are bound to know one way or the other in the future. I say there are still many things we think we know. And even if do find out we should ask ourselves "how on earth did we fall for that? Who says we are not going to fall for it again?"

Well i did actually say "I THINK" what uni is tryin\' to say...... i see your point,...but i felt it was relevant for me to use iraq as an example for this discussion...the whole question your gov\'t thing kinda fell under the iraq war for me....so just what are these people trying to let others know?....what i\'m getting out of this whole conversation is that you shouldn\'t believe everything your gov\'t tells you....and that they use patriotism/nationalism as a tool for brainwashing...<---and i do believe that on some small level...

i think the u.s, is the best country to live in,...and that is not because of anything the gov\'t has told me,....it\'s because of what i feel in my gut, it\'s because of how i see other countries around the world treat their citizens, it\'s how this country still continues to contribute millions whenever there\'s a catasrtophy across the world..etc,etc .....it\'s how other folks have told me,..even tho, they have gone to other great countries...they still feel the u.s. is the best country in the world...those places are nice to visit, but that\'s it....and regardless of all the racism and injustices that still exist,...i still think that overall this country stands for the greater good of all,...*but i have been at huge odds as of late because of bush & co.*