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Author Topic: Something to ponder about the PS2...  (Read 4784 times)

Jumpman
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2001, 11:16:15 AM »
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I merely stated my opinions riding off of the objectivity that was provided for me from various discussions Nintendo had with the press

First of all, your opinions will never be objective since everyone is unfluenced by something will causes them not to be fully objective(that didn\'t sound right, but you get the point).

While Nintendo clearly focuses on the younger market and doesn\'t deny it, they\'ve made an obvious attempt to break in to the older market with more adult orientated games than before and making they\'re NGC games more appealing to all audiences(EG- everyone at E3 had fun with Luigi\'s Mansion even though it appears to be a kiddie game). You didn\'t see both sides of this Nintendo not having an impact on Xbox and PS2 argument because they\'re focused only on the younger audience and that\'s why I said you weren\'t being objective.

Also, the GameCube is being released three days before the Xbox and costs 100$ less. It WILL have an impact on the Xbox\'s launch, I don\'t think anyone will disagree with me on that one.

I did a project regarding objectivity recently so pointing out that you were not being objective was very easy for me.

Offline Tshirts
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2001, 12:54:35 PM »
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I did a project regarding objectivity recently so pointing out that you were not being objective was very easy for me.


I know I wasn\'t being purely objective.

I said:


"I merely stated my opinions riding off of the objectivity that was provided for me from various discussions Nintendo had with the press."

For example:  The GC uses a cartridge like device for its games.  From that I conclude it is because they don\'t want the little kids to scratch it.  I was pointing out my opinions on why I think they are kiddy base on that objectivity.  That was what I meant.

Saotome ( sorry for using your name so blatantly) simply just speculated with no groundwork of objectivity.  That was the problem I had.  

Although it is not quite the same, it is in line with a fanboy coming here and shouting "Xbox will fail!" just because he *happens to think so* or something.

Jumpman
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2001, 01:26:25 PM »
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I know I wasn\'t being purely objective.

Of course, but the problem wasn\'t with you, it was with this.

 
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"I merely stated my opinions riding off of the objectivity that was provided for me from various discussions Nintendo had with the press."

There was no objectivity given from the press, they made their own conclusions on what Nintendo said. The word objectivity is irrelevant here.

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For example: The GC uses a cartridge like device for its games. From that I conclude it is because they don\'t want the little kids to scratch it. I was pointing out my opinions on why I think they are kiddy base on that objectivity. That was what I meant.

Again, I don\'t see why the word "objectivity" is even here. Your  stating your opinions, your coming up with [n]your[/b] own conclusions with were pretty inaccurate in my opinion. The NGC discs can easily be scratched just like Xbox\'s and PS2\'s discs. While you may think Nintendo chose those special discs for children not being able to scratch them, your still completely wrong. There was no objectivity there. Just speculation.

Offline TheOgodlyThing
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2001, 02:22:20 PM »
Who cares guys, I just want SUPER MARIO TWINS for the NGC. I hear it\'s got 8bit graphics and a killer sound track.

YOU LIKE THAT YOU IDIOT, LMAO

Offline Tshirts
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« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2001, 03:06:10 PM »
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First of all, your opinions will never be objective since everyone is unfluenced by something will causes them not to be fully objective(that didn\'t sound right, but you get the point).


I am sorry I don\'t quite get that.

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While Nintendo clearly focuses on the younger market and doesn\'t deny it, they\'ve made an obvious attempt to break in to the older market with more adult orientated games than before


On what basis did you conclude that?  It would be nice if you lay out some sort of fact for your groundwork of argument.  Anyway here is my rebuttal:

Before I continue this argument, I would like to point out that the "sports category" is a hard one to brand.  It appeals to both adults and children, and you cannot negate it in anyway.  It can neither be label as "mature" or "kiddie".  I would like to call it the "dark horse", and ask you to not use it on the basis of this argument.  The whole issue can turn into a whole different argument in itself.  If you agree to this, then read further.  If not, then you can stop now and disregard the rest of the post.  Thank you.


Since everybody is arrogating on what they believe is "mature" and what isn\'t, I would like to provide you with a definition straight out of the Marriam Webster dictionary:

Mature = characteristic of or suitable to a mature individual [/i]

The only "mature" games I see on the GC using that definition are the following:

Die Hard
Rogue Squadron
Mission Impossible 2
Resident Evil O
Metroid Prime
Eternal Darkness
Duke Nukem
Perfect Dark 2000
Raven Blade


It looks like quite a list but upon further examination I would like to point out the following:

All information provided by Videogames.com[/i]

The games that currently have no dates:

Die Hard
Mission Impossible 2
Resident Evil O
Duke Nukem
Perfect Dark Zero
Eternal Darkness
Metroid Prime

The one that does:

Rogue Squadron 2
Raven Blade                


-  Rogue Squadron 2 is the only launch title and Raven Blade is slated sometime in 2002.

-  Metroid Prime is currently "not a legitimate working title".

-  Eternal Darkness and Resident Evil O are straight ports off of the N64 and not first concieved on the GC.
Which is a strong point.  The games are just *port overs* from the dying N64 system.  Although it has landed on the GC, it was not intended for the system so you cannot lay a literary contention of "Nintendo is aiming for the adult market with the GC" using those two games.  The history of those games I do not know of but if I have to guess their first conception came after the success of Perfect Dark and *not* because "Nintendo is trying to attract the adult buyers with the GC".

-  I cannot comment on the games that have no dates.  They can be released next year, five years from now, or even be cancelled altogether.  We know nothing about them other than a couple of tech demos/screen shots (of Eternal Darkness, PD, & Metroid) and that it is indeed *confirmed* for the GC.

As you can see, it is hard for me to fathom how they are "breaking into the adult" market with such a low profile of softwares that are still obscure.  We only have "two" set dates.  Rogue Squadron at launch alone will do very little to attract even a small portion of the adult market in contrast to what is available on the Xbox and PS2.  Raven Blade is the only other known set date, and the game won\'t be released until 2002.  The competition (PS2, Xbox) will have high profile "mature" games such as MGS2, Silent Hill 2, Final Fantasy X, Panzer Dragoon, DOA3, etc.  Is it accurate to conclude the system will have a hard time attracting the adult audience considering the competition and the outlook of the system?

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(EG- everyone at E3 had fun with Luigi\'s Mansion even though it appears to be a kiddie game)


Again, this goes back to my argument with Saotome (see above).  I can just simply say a handful of my friends think Luigi\'s Mansion is for kids and refute your argument.  Since you don\'t have a basis of objectivity to derive off of, I don\'t need one either.

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You didn\'t see both sides of this Nintendo not having an impact on Xbox and PS2 argument because they\'re focused only on the younger audience and that\'s why I said you weren\'t being objective.


I would appreciate if you questioned me rather than arraign me of "not knowing" the contrast side of Nintendo not being kiddie.  I have been in various debates and I can assure you I am fully aware of the "otherside" of things.

Quote
Also, the GameCube is being released three days before the Xbox and costs 100$ less. It WILL have an impact on the Xbox\'s launch, I don\'t think anyone will disagree with me on that one.


I can easily argue with you on that one because it is not a fact but a mere speculation on your part (unless if you are a proven psychic).  I will not delve deeper into this because your statement/opinion/speculation seems to be quite true and I don\'t think I can draw a more accurate assessment.  Then again there is the possibility of both just attracting their targetted audience and ignoring one another entirely.  IMO of course.  :)

Offline Tshirts
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2001, 03:18:04 PM »
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Again, I don\'t see why the word "objectivity" is even here. Your stating your opinions, your coming up with [n]your[/b] own conclusions with were pretty inaccurate in my opinion. The NGC discs can easily be scratched just like Xbox\'s and PS2\'s discs. While you may think Nintendo chose those special discs for children not being able to scratch them, your still completely wrong. There was no objectivity there. Just speculation.


Since you obviously don\'t understand where I am coming from, I will say it in simpler terms.

Fact = Nintendo uses a "cartridge like" device.

Opinion = It is so the kids won\'t scratch it.

Saotome...

Fact = None

Opinion = They may have games that don\'t feature blood and gore and sex, but when does that ever make anything kiddy? .

Jumpman
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2001, 03:31:38 PM »
Ok so were moving a step backwards...
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I am sorry I don\'t quite get that.

I don\'t blame you, dut I\'ll try again. No one is fullu objective unless they\'re merely stating the actual facts without their own opinions. I hope that was better.

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On what basis did you conclude that? It would be nice if you lay out some sort of fact for your groundwork of argument.

While NGC may be getting alot more mature games than the N64, I meant to say that they\'re making their games more appealing for adults(Nintendo\'s exact word, I know it seems like I\'m trying to sneak out of an argument but I\'m not).

Sports titles would be considered appealing towars adults and all the games you mentioned. There\'s all the proof I need for my "Nintendo trying to break into the mature crowd audience". I could elaborate more but I\'m in a hurry to go somewhere now(hence I\'m not going to bother checking my spelling nor am I going to care about my grammar or vocabulary).

Oh yeah, PD2 is shedculed for a 2002 summer release, RE:0 should definitely be out sometime in 2002 since they\'ve been working on it for quite a while now, Eternal Darkness is coming out in December, and Metroid for sometime in 2002 but I suspect it should be out by summer 2002 since Retro has more of their focus and resources on it.

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Again, this goes back to my argument with Saotome (see above). I can just simply say a handful of my friends think Luigi\'s Mansion is for kids and refute your argument. Since you don\'t have a basis of objectivity to derive off of, I don\'t need one either.

I got my argument from various gaming sites like Gaming-Age, PlanetGameCube, IGNcube, and more. They said everyone who left playing that game had a smile on their face, and all of those people were adults. I guess it had SOME kind of people on adults.

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I would appreciate if you questioned me rather than arraign me of "not knowing" the contrast side of Nintendo not being kiddie. I have been in various debates and I can assure you I am fully aware of the "otherside" of things.

It didn\'t look like it.

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I can easily argue with you on that one because it is not a fact but a mere speculation on your part (unless if you are a proven psychic). I will not delve deeper into this because your statement/opinion/speculation seems to be quite true and I don\'t think I can draw a more accurate assessment. Then again there is the possibility of both just attracting their targetted audience and ignoring one another entirely. IMO of course.

Agreed.

Offline Sublimesjg
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2001, 04:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tshirts


Since you obviously don\'t understand where I am coming from, I will say it in simpler terms.

Fact = Nintendo uses a "cartridge like" device.

Opinion = It is so the kids won\'t scratch it.

Saotome...

Fact = None

Opinion = They may have games that don\'t feature blood and gore and sex, but when does that ever make anything kiddy? .


ok here is your fact

GC has those disks so that the games can not be copied so easily not so a kid won\'t scratch it - heck i don\'t know why you think that - maybe the music industry should change so kids won\'t scratch their fav cds - oh wait that would be a stupid reason huh
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Offline hyper
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2001, 04:14:56 PM »
Compare the following statements, Tshirts, and see if you can find anything similar.

Statement 1 (By yours truly)
The whole world KNOWS that Nintendo is kiddy, FACT!

Statement 2 (By me)
The whole world KNOWS that Microsoft makes ****ty OS\'s; therefore the X-Box will most likely bomb, FACT!

Now on to the actual argument...

You\'ve said these two things make Nintendo kiddy; 1) their games, and 2) them choosing catridges as their platform of choice for the N64.  

1) Here\'s a convenient list of games coming to the NGC, divided into Mature, Neutral, and Kiddy categories.

Mature
Raven Blade
Thornado
Metroid Prime
Turok Evolution
Perfect Dark Zero
Rogue Leader
Eternal Darkness
Resident Evil: 0
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dradon
Tekken Tag Tournament (Still in negotiations)
Too Human
Rogue Spear
Duke Nukem Forever

Neutral
Picassio
Saffire
NBA Courtside 2002
RRV (Still in negotiations)
1080 2 Snowboarding
Zelda GameCube
F-Zero (Rumored)
Wave Race: Blue Storm
Phantasy Star onlin Ver 2
Batman
NFL Blitz
NHL Hitz
Crazy Taxi
Extreme G3
18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker
Legends of Wrestling
All Star Baseball 2002
Madden NFL
Tony Hawk\'s Pro Skater
SSX: Tricky
Virtual Striker 3

"Kiddy"
Mario Gamecube (Not in my opinion, but since everyone else thinks so)
Kameo (Again, I disagree, but I regress)
Luigi\'s Mansion
Smash Brothers Melee
Rayman Tribe
Pikmin
Monkey Ball
Mario Kart
Donkey Kong Racing

I\'ve gone and done some math, and here\'s a percentage comparison between games that are not kiddy (which includes the neutral ones) versus "hardcore kiddy fanfare."

Not kiddy: 79.07%
Kiddy: 20.93%

So your post would be factual if you changed it to "Nintendo caters to the younger audience moreso than the competition, but spends an equal amount of resouces in developing mature games. However, combined with efforts from third-parties, the NGC will have a library mostly consisting of games that are not kiddy. The whole world knows THAT."

2) Actually, the decision to use catridges over CD\'s with the N64 was largely affected by Miyamoto, not because Nintendo was afraid little kids might cry over scratched games. Miyamoto wanted to simulate as realistic a virtual world as possible with Mario 64, which meant that it would lack load times among other things. That was currently impossible with a CD.

Another major reason that Nintendo opted with catridges was to protect their games from piracy. As you may well know, burned PSX games are a hot commodity in China; not so with catridges. I have yet to see any N64 titles illegally distributed or copied, nor have I seen anyone bothered to so.  

At the time the N64 was in development, when 16-bit consoles were still around, catridges were efficient and widely used. So the Nintendo R&D figured that it wouldn\'t be a problem to utilize catridges. Also in Yamauchi\'s own words, back when the N64 was still crawling towards its launch; "CD\'s are merely a fad." When the N64 hardware was reaching its end of development, it was too late to turn to CD\'s, as everything was almost finalized. Even had Nintendo realized their mistake, they would have had to let it go.

I hope that clears up a few things on why Nintendo chose catridges over Cd\'s.

Offline IronFist
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2001, 04:16:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sublimesjg
GC has those disks so that the games can not be copied so easily not so a kid won\'t scratch it - heck i don\'t know why you think that - maybe the music industry should change so kids won\'t scratch their fav cds - oh wait that would be a stupid reason huh

To be fair, I have to say this.  Kids don\'t buy CDs.  The target audience is Teens to Adults.  I don\'t know why it even matters though.  I\'m just really bored right now.
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Offline IronFist
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2001, 04:28:42 PM »
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Originally posted by hyper
Statement 2 (By me)
The whole world KNOWS that Microsoft makes ****ty OS\'s; therefore the X-Box will most likely bomb, FACT!

Wrong.  Yes, the whole world knows Microsoft makes crappy OSs.  But NO, the Xbox will not most likely bomb because of this.  That was just your oppinion.

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1) Here\'s a convenient list of games coming to the NGC, divided into Mature, Neutral, and Kiddy categories.

Mature

Tekken Tag Tournament (Still in negotiations)


Tekken Tag Tournament is mature?  Since when? :)

I agree with everything else you said though.
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Offline datamage
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2001, 04:56:36 PM »
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Opinion = It is so the kids won\'t scratch it.


That\'s a reason, not an opinion. Just wanted to point that out.

I won\'t even bother getting into these useless debates.


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Offline Tshirts
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2001, 05:47:23 PM »
Jumpman

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Sports titles would be considered appealing towars adults and all the games you mentioned. There\'s all the proof I need for my "Nintendo trying to break into the mature crowd audience".


In contention, I can say "sports titles also appeals to little kids" so that makes the system kiddie.  Now who is more right and who is more wrong?

Quote
Oh yeah, PD2 is shedculed for a 2002 summer release, RE:0 should definitely be out sometime in 2002 since they\'ve been working on it for quite a while now, Eternal Darkness is coming out in December, and Metroid for sometime in 2002 but I suspect it should be out by summer 2002 since Retro has more of their focus and resources on it.


Yikes!  It is one thing to refute me but quite another to controvert a reliable and respectable site like videogames.com.  In this case, I would have to ask for a link since you are trying to disprove a highly reputable site such as this.

hyper

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You\'ve said these two things make Nintendo kiddy; 1) their games, and 2) them choosing catridges as their platform of choice for the N64.


I can assure you I said more than that.


Quote
1) Here\'s a convenient list of games coming to the NGC, divided into Mature, Neutral, and Kiddy categories.


I am sorry but your list has too many questionable titles with no release dates and current status.  Everything is too vague to draw up any kind of accurate assessment.  For example:  On my list, I stated Metroid Prime was "not a legitimate working title" and Rogue Squadron 2 is a launch title and Raven Blade is going to be released sometime in 2002.  To me, it is nothing more than *just a list* to make the GC look good.  You have to go into more detail and delve deeper into each title....such as release dates, confirmation on title, status, etc.

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I hope that clears up a few things on why Nintendo chose catridges over Cd\'s.


Yes.  Those are some really good points.

But......

Straight from Nintendo themselves:

Nintendo stated that, "This 8cm pocket size disc that can fit in your pocket was designed to be an advanced medium that can be easily inserted/removed from the main drive and is user-friendly for all levels."

As well as this, the discs contain advanced piracy protection devices, which will prevent mass-piracy as is being seen at present in the current software market.


http://www.gamecubest.com/faq.html

Offline hyper
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Something to ponder about the PS2...
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tshirts
hyper
I can assure you I said more than that.
[/b]

From your posts (Concerning "Nintendo is kiddy"), I stripped everything down to a bare-bones level, and those were your two main points.

Quote

I am sorry but your list has too many questionable titles with no release dates and current status.  Everything is too vague to draw up any kind of accurate assessment.  For example:  On my list, I stated Metroid Prime was "not a legitimate working title" and Rogue Squadron 2 is a launch title and Raven Blade is going to be released sometime in 2002.  To me, it is nothing more than *just a list* to make the GC look good.  You have to go into more detail and delve deeper into each title....such as release dates, confirmation on title, status, etc.
[/B]

If you think I\'m talented enough to pull even half of those titles out of my ass, just to make Nintendo look good, then I\'m truly grateful. But this being summer vacation as it is, (and to show you how sad my life is :p)I\'ll provide a source for every one of those titles.

Mature
Raven Blade - http://cube.ign.com/previews/16579.html
Thornado - http://cube.ign.com/previews/1971.html

Metroid Prime (This is a legiminate title in development. Why would you think otherwise??)
- http://cube.ign.com/previews/15316.html

Turok Evolution (It seems I was wrong about Turok. Substituting Turok, Acclaim is bringing eight titles to the NGC, none of them kiddy. I\'m not going to bother listing all eight here though.) - http://cube.ign.com/news/35221.html

Perfect Dark Zero - http://cube.ign.com/news/35693.html

Rogue Leader - http://cube.ign.com/games/15337.html

Eternal Darkness - http://cube.ign.com/games/15887.html

Resident Evil: 0 - http://cube.ign.com/games/15353.html

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dradon - http://www.fgnonline.com/playstation2/news/18057.html
Tekken Tag Tournament (Still in negotiations) - I can\'t find the link.

MK5 - http://cube.ign.com/news/33440.html
 
Too Human - http://cube.ign.com/games/15333.html
Rogue Spear - http://cube.ign.com/news/35212.html
Duke Nukem Forever - http://cube.ign.com/games/16464.html

Neutral
Picassio
Saffire
NBA Courtside 2002
RRV (Still in negotiations)
1080 2 Snowboarding
Zelda GameCube
F-Zero (Rumored)
Wave Race: Blue Storm
Phantasy Star onlin Ver 2
Batman
NFL Blitz
NHL Hitz
Crazy Taxi
Extreme G3
18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker
Legends of Wrestling
All Star Baseball 2002
Madden NFL
Tony Hawk\'s Pro Skater
SSX: Tricky
Virtual Striker 3

"Kiddy"
Mario Gamecube (Not in my opinion, but since everyone else thinks so) - I\'m not gonna bother with this one.

Kameo (Again, I disagree, but I regress) - http://cube.ign.com/games/16571.html

Luigi\'s Mansion - No link needed.
Smash Brothers Melee - No link needed.
Rayman Tribe - http://cube.ign.com/news/35212.html
Pikmin - Not needed.
Monkey Ball - http://cube.ign.com/news/35725.html
Mario Kart - Not needed.
Donkey Kong Racing - Not needed.

I\'ll get to the rest tomorrow.

Quote

Yes.  Those are some really good points.

But......

Straight from Nintendo themselves:

Nintendo stated that, "This 8cm pocket size disc that can fit in your pocket was designed to be an advanced medium that can be easily inserted/removed from the main drive and is user-friendly for all levels."

As well as this, the discs contain advanced piracy protection devices, which will prevent mass-piracy as is being seen at present in the current software market.


http://www.gamecubest.com/faq.html


I don\'t seem to see your point there...

Offline Bobs_Hardware

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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2001, 10:20:00 PM »
is it just me, or is this thread really boring???  

TShirts, if you believe half that crap yove spewed out, then you truly are a \'fanboy\'.  I read this thread very subjectively at first (as you would see in my previous post)  But some of your posts are filled with absolute bull****.  Start up another thread and ill be happy to have a debate with you (not that you would give a ****), this one is too long, and to damn boring, someone just close it.

 

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