Casual gamers do know games(I kind of took this from reading Weltalls post)

Originally posted by Ryu


That\'s pretty much your whole point and the fact is, that is simply not the case.  Any gamer in here can tell you that brand names and commercials sell more games then anything else.  For example, the 989 sports series on the PS2 sell incredibly well.  Why is that?  All the "hardcore" gamers know to avoid those things like the plague, but people have to buy them for their sales to go up.  I leave that to the casual gamers who saw one commercial and bought a copy for themselves and their friends.



Exactly.  Much more eloquent then my definition of hardcore, but I went into far more depth with the "Casual" gamer and thus the debate ensues...

Here are some link to top selling games on ps2 and top selling video games. I want to kill your 989 talk right away because clearly they don\'t sell well when it comes to sports. And I would like to think that most of these top selling games got little  advertising at especially the nintendo line up that sells wells. Some how nintendo fans now good nintendo game without advertising. I think most gamers do and you have your data confused. And big name franchises are the only games that get a lot of advertising so ryu please explain to me how you are coming up with your data.

http://www.playdateinc.com/playdate2000/videogames.htm
http://mb.vgdirectory.com/Chart-BestSellUS.htm


edit: Here is the t0p 50 selling games http://mb.vgdirectory.com/toptenDengeki.htm

I think gamers no what games they and until you prove bye some sort of link or something that those crappy games are selling big then your wrong.

Its my belief that my big balls should be held EVERYNIGHT!

Err..., What I MEANT to say was, its my belief that the whole hardcore casual gamer line is getting narrower and narrower. Since games on a whole have been becoming more popular, its becoming more popular for people to do things that were only considered hardcore years ago. Things like read gaming magazines, go to websites devoted to games, and such. As people get into these things they learn more and more about games. I mean at what point does a casual gamer become "hardcore"? I think that in a few years the term harcore gamer will be the same as hardcore movie goer. It just wont exist and the amount that it does exist in will be so small.

Originally posted by Faithdies
Its my belief that my big balls should be held EVERYNIGHT!

Err..., What I MEANT to say was, its my belief that the whole hardcore casual gamer line is getting narrower and narrower. Since games on a whole have been becoming more popular, its becoming more popular for people to do things that were only considered hardcore years ago. Things like read gaming magazines, go to websites devoted to games, and such. As people get into these things they learn more and more about games. I mean at what point does a casual gamer become "hardcore"? I think that in a few years the term harcore gamer will be the same as hardcore movie goer. It just wont exist and the amount that it does exist in will be so small.

i AGREE some what. PPl are trying to say that hardcore gamers no more about video games or know the best games. When they have noway of proven this because they can\'t. I mean you can\'t hardcore means something different in everyway you put it. Like a hardcore biker-I mean I would considered that a biker that knows more about biking than someone who likes the way they look. But as for hardcore gamer. I think it all blahh..and more blahh...You could be hardcore gamer because you play games at least 80hours a week and it may just be psx games or dreamcast games. Too say someone is not hardcore because they didn\'t get a system that you thought was kick ass. I mean you can\'t characterize a genre of ppl bast on the fact that you feel because something appeals to you and has great games too you makes you hardcore because you got it. I mean that stupid. And is rediculous for ppl to characterize hardcore and casual based game preference because that is what  it is.

First of all QuDDuS, there is this thing called the "Return" or "Enter" learn to use it. It is commonly used in writing for spacing out ideas and paragraphs.

That said, 989 games don\'t have to be int he top 10 or top 25 to be successful, when hundreds of games are released evry year and they still sell consistent, despite the fact that they are crap says something. I talked to several people in my school last year, at the beginning and they said that they loved the new March Madness or whatever it is called basketball game for PS2.

Casual gamers don\'t know if something is better than another product if they only see a commercial for one of the products, versus another, they will buy the commercialed one.

Sure EA had that "Kickus maximus buttimus ad with all the sports in there, but that add was not funny and not impressive. The 989 ads were funny (some of them) and showed gameplay.

Eric Jacob

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
First of all QuDDuS, there is this thing called the "Return" or "Enter" learn to use it. It is commonly used in writing for spacing out ideas and paragraphs.

That said, 989 games don\'t have to be int he top 10 or top 25 to be successful, when hundreds of games are released evry year and they still sell consistent, despite the fact that they are crap says something. I talked to several people in my school last year, at the beginning and they said that they loved the new March Madness or whatever it is called basketball game for PS2.

Casual gamers don\'t know if something is better than another product if they only see a commercial for one of the products, versus another, they will buy the commercialed one.

Sure EA had that "Kickus maximus buttimus ad with all the sports in there, but that add was not funny and not impressive. The 989 ads were funny (some of them) and showed gameplay.

Eric Jacob

Ok first of all your basing your whole idea off of some kids in your class. Second I showed you 989 sports is not in the t0p 50 it may be in the top 200 maybe 198 or something. But fact is 989 sports does not sell better than ea. Second few liked the 989 college basketball games is because it\'s the only one you can get on ps2. The commercial for it where wack. And as I have shown the game didn\'t sell well. I mean if your going to say the game sold well show me a link where the game sold good. You can\'t find one. And I wish you would stop saying "Casual gamers don\'t know if something is better than another product if they only see a commercial for one of the products". Do you obvisously believe ppl don\'t shop video games in stores. OMG you guys are saying a lot of things that the facts don\'t prove. Just think about it. Do you know how many million of ppl rent games. I mean different types of games.

Here is a link to top rented games in january
http://mb.vgdirectory.com/game062301.htm

Link to top rented games in april
http://www.gamesmania.com/news.asp?Action=2674

Link to top rented games in july
http://www.pokemonvillage.com/shownews.asp?id_=8177

Basicly what I am trying to say is ppl are renting games like never before. They are not just going out and waisting there money anymore. I mean you and ryu make good points, but they don\'t apply to gaming now of days. Beause ppl have gotten more wiser and smarter about gaming. I mean if what you where saying was true then the game sales and rentals would speak for you. But you two are not going to find anything that backs up what your saying about gamers.

uggghhh. Gimme a break.


Eric Jacob

I mean if what you where saying was true then the game sales and rentals would speak for you. But you two are not going to find anything that backs up what your saying about gamers.

Back up what?  My opinion?  I bet you consider yourself to be a casual gamer don\'t you, which is why you are having the hard time of accepting the fact that just about every casual gamer buys into hype moreso then anything else on Earth.  Face it, commercials sell, 989 has Sony backed money for commercials, the Bouncer sells well, the Army Men series sells well, and so does Mark Kate and Ashley Olsen games.  You think hardcore gamers run out to stores and buy into that crap?  You\'re deluded, buddy.  The hard part now is for you to come to terms and accept the fact that the world is one sh|tty retarded place despite just how intelligent you CLAIM it to be.  I don\'t think you can find a link to backup any "claim" to say so otherwise.

Originally posted by Ryu


Back up what?  My opinion?  I bet you consider yourself to be a casual gamer don\'t you, which is why you are having the hard time of accepting the fact that just about every casual gamer buys into hype moreso then anything else on Earth.  Face it, commercials sell, 989 has Sony backed money for commercials, the Bouncer sells well, the Army Men series sells well, and so does Mark Kate and Ashley Olsen games.  You think hardcore gamers run out to stores and buy into that crap?  You\'re deluded, buddy.  The hard part now is for you to come to terms and accept the fact that the world is one sh|tty retarded place despite just how intelligent you CLAIM it to be.  I don\'t think you can find a link to backup any "claim" to say so otherwise.

No I don\'t get into names of gamers. I have been playing games all mylife. I have had  15 systems total sum which  where unknown japan systems. I just consider myself someone who loves to play great games. And you are saying ppl running out and buying army men and 989 sports. Well yeah they may sell 1 or 2 copies but never enough that make it a successful game. If you think I\'m wrong show me some 989 game figures. They don\'t crack the top 50  most sold ps2 games. Because they don\'t have successful franchises. Only reason they even where brought back because  of sony I guess you don\'t remember they where fired?
And I guess you don\'t remember everyone over hear shouting how good the bouncer was going to be til the day it came out and eveyone played it. And  some ppl do buy games for commercials, but wack games do not sell big no matter how much advertisment is put into them. ALA the bouncer. Just check the sales figures of the top ps2 games of 2000. I can assure you the bouncer,gameday, and nba shootout are nowhere to be seen.

Quess Qwhat Quddus? you\'re an idiot. I can safely say.

You want me to show you why?

There are tons of Army Men games out there. Why would they still make game after game of Army Man if it didn\'t sell? There is no logic to that. If it makes money (ie: sells games) they make more. Not if they are losing money by putting out Army Men games.

and 989 games won\'t be in the top because they only made like 2 PS2 games in 2000 for PS2. and some of their sports games came out THIS year, because that is what happens with Baseball and such. And Bouncer sold tremendously in America and Japan first week. 200k in Japan. and you know what kind of people buy games first day without knowing a drop about them? fanboys and casual gamers. It had pretty graphics and the Square logo on it, of coruse people will buy the game. Do you honestly think people rented Bouncer, beat it in 15 minutes then said "Wow! I gotta get this game!" No.

you\'re argument is going down the crapper.


Eric Jacob

didn\'t Bouncer come out THIS year?


Eric Jacob

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Quess Qwhat Quddus? you\'re an idiot. I can safely say.

You want me to show you why?

There are tons of Army Men games out there. Why would they still make game after game of Army Man if it didn\'t sell? There is no logic to that. If it makes money (ie: sells games) they make more. Not if they are losing money by putting out Army Men games.

and 989 games won\'t be in the top because they only made like 2 PS2 games in 2000 for PS2. and some of their sports games came out THIS year, because that is what happens with Baseball and such. And Bouncer sold tremendously in America and Japan first week. 200k in Japan. and you know what kind of people buy games first day without knowing a drop about them? fanboys and casual gamers. It had pretty graphics and the Square logo on it, of coruse people will buy the game. Do you honestly think people rented Bouncer, beat it in 15 minutes then said "Wow! I gotta get this game!" No.

you\'re argument is going down the crapper.


Eric Jacob

AND why would they make a tales from the cript movie sequal when the first one bomb at the theater? Why would FiLa keep making gym shoes when everyone knows they are plaid? And why would james brown keep singing when nobody wants to see him sing anymore? Why would Chris Rock starr in 2 crappy movies back to back? Why would adam sadler make a crappy movie that bombed like little nicky? You see how stupid that sounds. Why ask why? I can\'t explain why the would and 989 sports games where out in 2000 buddy. Madden sure sold well. You know why because it did not suck as much as gameday did.

And you brought up square sales figures in japan. I mean buy now don\'t you know that square is a god in japan. And any game that looks good with the name square is going to clean up in japan. I thought you would even know this. You would be surprise how many ppl subsrcibe to game magazines these days. I mean you are offered free subscriptions for purchasing certain games and signing up with funcoland. So I think through advertising and good pr moves that more ppl are starting to get more in depth when it comes to gaming. And if your going to sit here and debate 989 studio games selling well. Then that is pretty weak. I mean you can ask 1000 gamers about 989 and they will all say they suck. And 989 games don\'t show up in top game sales are not in top 50. Does not that show you that 989 is not that popular? They where fired once and will be again.  And when you GOT sony backing you then. You can afford to lose money. I mean take this for example. Ted Turner owned wcw and from 1998 up until the day he sold them they lost him money. Ppl said he should have sold them years ago. But he was a billionare and he was losing maybe 15-20 million off it and when your a billionare that amount does not matter. Plus he has stake in Warner bro\'s so in bussiness those things go buy. But sooner or later it comes to and end and wcw was fired. Why did they keep wcw around if it was losing him money? WHY ASK WHY? Do you study bussiness? I mean sony has invested money into 989 and maybe they think sooner or later 989 has to get it right. But why ask why? That just how big companies run business, but sooner or later the slow selling divison is kicked off. I mean look at GM with oldsmobile. Slow slumping sells for the past years and finally they decide to stop making oldsmobiles. I mean I can\'t explain it, but that just how it is in bussiness.

And my argument is going crapper. Well thank for thosw words of wisdom. At least I have attempted prove what I am saying and not just basing things off my own opinions. I am still waiting on something that shows 989 is selling well. Because every link I posted for games sells. I just can\'t seem to find 989 anywhere.

There you go you idiot.

Learn to actually back up your crap before you SAY it!

http://www.iemag.com/trsts/monthly/lookuptrsts.asp?id=8&date=3/1/01

Bouncer was number 2 in March, in AMERICA for PS2.

and it was the NUMBER 3 game overall that month.


Eric Jacob

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
There you go you idiot.

Learn to actually back up your crap before you SAY it!

http://www.iemag.com/trsts/monthly/lookuptrsts.asp?id=8&date=3/1/01

Bouncer was number 2 in March, in AMERICA for PS2.

and it was the NUMBER 3 game overall that month.


Eric Jacob

Well when you can\'t back up what you say you result to name calling huh? Well I won\'t even play that childish game with you.  Because it is uncalled for.  And I was not disputing your square info. If you read what I said I was talking about how you mention square in japan I never said anything about square in USA. So I don\'t know why you even bothered to bring this link up. I was talking about your so called army men and 989 sports claim. Try backing those two up buddy.

And backing up. Well I have posted links in my prevous post backing up and disputing the things you say.

And you are saying ppl running out and buying army men and 989 sports. Well yeah they may sell 1 or 2 copies but never enough that make it a successful game. If you think I\'m wrong show me some 989 game figures. They don\'t crack the top 50 most sold ps2 games. Because they don\'t have successful franchises. Only reason they even where brought back because of sony I guess you don\'t remember they where fired?

If the Army Men games and the 989 games sold so damn terribly, then why are they made for nearly every damn system?  Obviously, there is a market for them and they are successful enough for the many spin-offs and sequels they have had to have even more sequels and more spin-offs.  A company does not continue a franchise if it completely dies and doesn\'t sell anything at all.

Tekken was never in the top 20 for PSX games sold, yet that game has had what, 5 versions?  Ace Combat is never in the top 30, but they are going on 5 versions as well.  Street Fighter is also a victim of this rarely ever making it into the top 50 in games sold, but those suckers have had what?  20 different versions?  Army Men has had what, 3 sequels for each version of army men across nearly every platform?  What does all this information show?  That there is a considerable audience for each of these games and even though they will never make it into the top 50 charts, the games will always be made for those who buy them.  I don\'t need a chart to back that up either.

And I guess you don\'t remember everyone over hear shouting how good the bouncer was going to be til the day it came out and eveyone played it. And some ppl do buy games for commercials, but wack games do not sell big no matter how much advertisment is put into them. ALA the bouncer. Just check the sales figures of the top ps2 games of 2000. I can assure you the bouncer,gameday, and nba shootout are nowhere to be seen.

The bouncer did come out in 2001.  

There are more Army Games in the making and this demonstrates my point exactly.  Why continue to make sequels if the games don\'t sell?  The answer that you seem to be ignoring: they do sell well, period.  Maybe not to the limited 100 people you talk to, but they do to the 100,000 (or maybe even 50,000) people who buy them.  I guess your circle of 100 people is just far too limited in their gaming preferences.

And my argument is going crapper. Well thank for thosw words of wisdom. At least I have attempted prove what I am saying and not just basing things off my own opinions. I am still waiting on something that shows 989 is selling well. Because every link I posted for games sells. I just can\'t seem to find 989 anywhere.

Your arguements above are mostly null.  The videogame industry, the movie industry, and the shoe (wtf?) industry are all totally different things.  Fact of the matter is, so long as the companies are in business, they are obviously selling their product to some people and that is abou the only similarity between all those companies and industries listed above.

3DO makes the worst games, flopped a console launch, and pumps out Army Men after Army Men game and still have enough money to stay in business.  There has to be profits in there SOMEWHERE to stay afloat, especially in this unstable market.

yup, Bouncer came out in March of 2001.

and NBA Shootout, another game he listed, came out in February 2001.

It isn\'t childish name calling if YOU just don\'t get it. I have put up sales figures and you shrug them off as not arguing about those, alothugh the quote Ryu JUST put up, shows that you WERE talking about Bouncer, which is why I looked for it.

I am sorry, you aren\'t an idiot. you are ignorant, it really isn\'t your fault, you are a product of massmedia.


Eric Jacob