New topic! Is Sony too much of a monopoly on the gaming industry?

Ddaryl, since when did you become the gospel of life?  You don\'t post for what seems like a month and then all of a sudden you come back telling us what to do... What\'s the deal?

what do you mean ???

you have a post with a sticky next to it with a rant about name calling and all of sudden I\'m the "gospel of life"

I think anyone who wastes there time reading this thread and replying to it in a 10 paragraph rebuttle needs a long hard reality break

there is nothing here worth debating about. Just play the games have fun and try not to make it seem like its a vital part of ones existence

oh and RYU

sorry you have a problem with that, but its the truth

So long as we\'re arguing about little things like that, let\'s not forget who has roughly 3000 more posts then any other member.  Besides, you are abcent T for months and you judge me for what I am doing with this board?  You don\'t even have a clue as to what happened.  That\'s ok though, all is well when you\'re "outside in the sun" or whatever. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ryu
Ddaryl, since when did you become the gospel of life?  You don\'t post for what seems like a month and then all of a sudden you come back telling us what to do... What\'s the deal?

He\'s been working in his garden again.  When he\'s in his garden, he forgets all about how people who love video games and love talking about the industry come here to talk about it.  I don\'t want to start the whole video games VS gardens argument again, but ddaryl remember what we told you last time: To each his own!

Disney is a huge company and I wouldn\'t want them to develop chips. Why not go with the industry leaders? Why not go with the best chip makers on the market?

It is inferior. Toshiba isn\'t known to the casual or the professional as a high-powered chip designer. Still searching for a point here.

Chrono has a good point there. Toshiba is a big company just like Sony too and they have lots of resources in different divisions. Just because you, or the casual consumer never heard of Toshiba not making chips doesn\'t mean they\'re bad or anything. Very strange logic there. So for you, everything has to be IBM/NVidia/ATI for it to "good" - just because their the big brands in that field. :rolleyes:

Did Nvidia, IBM or ATI design the original PSX chip? Following your logic too, Sony who can also be called a "no-name" in that field in those days was also a infiriour product. Yeah right. :rolleyes:

Well I tell you something. Since \'the Cell\' is the next big thing to happen soon, I wonder why Toshiba is still apart of it. Maybe their not that bad afterall. Again, why should I believe your logic? You have absolutely no idea, yet you speculate about a company (which you have no idea about what\'s) and acuse them of having bad engineers. Please let people judge who really understand what their talking about.

It\'s funny how you critisize the chip design of the EE, yet a lot of pc enthusiastic sites rave on about it. I wonder who I would believe? Watchdog, a nobody in this area or some guys who actually understand what their raving on about.

Even if it isn\'t inferior it isn\'t any more powerful, but it\'s a hell of a lot harder to code for. Do you really thing Sony would make the same decision if they had a chance to do it over again?

I don\'t know. But do you know what, we\'ll see in a few years if it was a good decision. Being the judge of it now, it was: if they had taken it the normal way (as MS is doing), you would have ended up with a PC with a Nvidia Geforce 1. Well, obviously this wouldn\'t have been the way to go, since the PS2 is still up there with Xbox graphics.

I think it\'s funny how you make things up. You can code to the metal for the xbox, only it is far easier. You tell me what devs want, then if you post what I know you will, let\'s quote some devs and see how many actually prefer the PS2 archetecture to the xbox\'s. I\'ll save us both some time, the answer is none. Like I said above, the xbox is old archetecture, but it still kicks ass. Why revent the wheel?

Typical Watchdog. If I say something that you\'ve never heard of, it\'s made up. :rolleyes:
You have no idea buddy. Read some interviews back a few years, and I am certainly not the one that is going to dig those up. But to lay things down to ya (since you have no idea), the Xbox does let you code the metal (to that extend as any system), but PS2 takes that a step further. Instead of copy/paste Nvidia test code into the machine, PS2 developers have to think about every single step of a graphics-engine. There are very little effects supported, but the power and performance ensures that developers can get the same results if the talent is there. The big positive side? Freedom of development. The reason why we\'re suddenly seing games on PS2 that support DTS ingame, progressive output and more will follow. PS2 developers will have to program their effects - something that is obviously harder, but much more rewarding in the end. Do you know with what tools Xbox developers are coding? Well, look into some PC game developer devision and you\'ll know. PS2 developers are however using next so standard C/C++, also Vector Microcode and Assembler at a daily basis to get anywhere near to what Xbox games are looking like. Is this good? It\'s challenging, for sure, hard aswell, but will be rewarding in the end. It\'s the nature of this system. Trust me, as a software engineer, I should know what I\'m speaking of.

You tell me what devs want, then if you post what I know you will, let\'s quote some devs and see how many actually prefer the PS2 archetecture to the xbox\'s.

People who prefer the PS2 hardware over a x86 architecture certainly know why. There are a lot of developers out there that are loosing the motivation of being "cracks" - Sad but true. It\'s a trend lately and the game developers are no exception. There are a lot of Developers that prefer to be creative rather than cracks. This isn\'t necessarely bad, but  just a different mentality. You have a lot of them that love the Xbox for what it is: a easy and cheap way to make good graphics. A PS2 systems requires more headaches, but as I said, can be more rewarding in the end due to the nature of its hardware. A trend has already began; that a lot of developing companies (finance sectors and others) are training their software engineers to code in Java instead of the usual C/C++. Why? Because it\'s easy and cheap to do quite complex stuff. Is it better? No. Sad but true and that\'s how it stands.

No one asked for a lesson, but you do need one. How can someone argue a topic without any knowledge about the topic. I don\'t know either, but watch Seven, he does it all the time. My "lesson" wasn\'t about MS, it was about monopolies, which is what this topic is about and is what you know nothing about. Do you get my point?

Then I\'m sorry, but you completely wasted your time then because I don\'t need a lesson and certainly not from you. However, I think you should be a bit open minded, especially about the above topic about development. Your lack of knowledge shines through too.

Windows 2000 is rock steady. Of course it\'s fair. People buy it. That\'s the bottom line with capitalism. There is no backing because it is an inferior product (including all aspects, not just the actual OS which is better as a stripped down windows clone). If the product was superior, people would buy it. That\'s capitalism at work.

I do use Windows 2000 on a daily basis. And with \'Windows\', I was specifically talking about the windows that the casual consumer buys. They don\'t have NT4 or Win2k at home (Win2k is the NT4 successor) - they have Win95/98/Me. And no, as Fatal pointed out, Linux is no option for the casual consumer. It\'s superiour, but unfortunately it\'s not getting any backing by the software companies. So even though there is a better OS, what good is that for me if the software support for it is underwhellming?

I think Sony is almost at a monopoly status for people 20+
I don´t know the numbers of gamers that is over 20 that have a GC but I don´t think they are many.
Here in Sweden is Sony very big. They totally dominates the sales of TV:s, portable audio, headphones a.s.o and the gamingindustry here.
You can find the Playstation logo almost everywhere.

The thing with Sony is that they do know very well the trends amongst 10-30 years old people. Just like Nokia they know that design and other factors are just as important as performance.
A Nokia phone is not better than a Ericsson phone but still they sell tons more. They know what people wants. Sony knows that too.
If you want a minidisc or other portable soundgadget you choose Sony. If I could choose between a Sony MD or a Panasonic MD I choose the Sony MD, why?? I don´t know Sony has managed to grab me and million of others.

Nobody belives Sony has a monopoly on portables cd-players and MD, but in practise they have. They totally dominates the portable industry of audio.

Sony is well known of their inovation, they put around 5% of all money into R&D, not many companies does that.
They have tons of patents.

Originally posted by Bossieman

If you want a minidisc or other portable soundgadget you choose Sony. If I could choose between a Sony MD or a Panasonic MD I choose the Sony MD, why?? I don´t know Sony has managed to grab me and million of others.

Plus the little moneyhat on the side helps

I rule for making this thread.

Keep the debating going. Its good!

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It\'s funny how you critisize the chip design of the EE, yet a lot of pc enthusiastic sites rave on about it. I wonder who I would believe? Watchdog, a nobody in this area or some guys who actually understand what their raving on about.
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Who raves about it?  You?  My point is that just because you are a big company with a lot pf resources doesn\'t mean you can make anything you want.  The fact of the matter is that Nvidea, ATi etc are industry leaders for a reason.  If Sony/Tosh could make chips better than anyone else, why don\'t they?  Because they can\'t.  I would never buy a TV from MS just because they are a big company with lots of resources.  


Had Sony contracted Nvidea, they would have got a custom GF2 and that could do some pretty amazing things.  Hell my GF2 runs any PC game I put in at at least a constant 30fps.  That\'s at least on par with anything the PS2 can do right now.


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Typical Watchdog. If I say something that you\'ve never heard of, it\'s made up.  
You have no idea buddy. Read some interviews back a few years, and I am certainly not the one that is going to dig those up.
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Uh-huh.  I remember a thread where you were the one to dig them up and all you could find were confessionals from Sony, Square, Naughty Dog and other 1st and 2nd party devs.  I rebutted with 3RD PARTY interviews and quotes and you then called those 3RD PARTY devs biased and uninformed and continued to quote yourself.  This is typical Seven.

When anyone praises the xbox over the PS2 (even on these boards--remember Bioware, Digital Illusions or Epic?) you always come back with they have been bought or they don\'t know what they are talking about.  Why is that Seven?  You repeatedly call into question the knowledge and expertise of PROFFESSIONAL designers who work for 3RD party devs, all the while asking everyone here to believe your thoughts and views over theirs.  How does this make sense to you, because I\'d really like to know?

But perhaps my favourite Seven quote of all time has to be (and I believe this is in rebuttal to one of those infamous discussions):  "I just finished a conversation with someone who works at Square and they said..."  LOL, that is classic.  

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PS2 developers have to think about every single step of a graphics-engine. There are very little effects supported, but the power and performance ensures that developers can get the same results if the talent is there. The big positive side? Freedom of development.
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The big negative side--it NEEDLESSLY forces devs to work that much harder, that much longer, forcing a longer dev cycle, causing them to lose money and generally pisses them off.  The xbox gives devs the choice--they can use the preexisting stuff and maximize their dev cycle, or they can throw those away and write their own.  Sometimes there is no need to code everything from scratch, scrutinizing the code, optimizing endlessly, but the PS2 forces them to do it anyway.

This is what I\'ve always said--you always take the PS2 in the most optimistic, the most favourable light, then compare that to the most pessimistic scenario for the xbox and make judgement.


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PS2 developers are however using next so standard C/C++, also Vector Microcode and Assembler at a daily basis to get anywhere near to what Xbox games are looking like. Is this good? It\'s challenging, for sure, hard aswell, but will be rewarding in the end. It\'s the nature of this system. Trust me, as a software engineer, I should know what I\'m speaking of.
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But why force them?  The only thing that is ultimately rewarding is a paycheck and if given a choice those devs would rather work less hard, less hours to get the same results.  If you have a quote from some who doesn\'t recieve paychecks from Sony, then I\'d love to hear a dev say that working on the PS2 is better than the xbox, that I\'d love to see.   Unless you are a complete masochist, you want to express yourself and get your vision on screen.  You don\'t want to wrestle with the machine to get a simple effect out of it.   I have a question, how do you type and hug your PS2 at the same time?


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Then I\'m sorry, but you completely wasted your time then because I don\'t need a lesson and certainly not from you. However, I think you should be a bit open minded, especially about the above topic about development. Your lack of knowledge shines through too.
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I always waste my time when talking with you Seven, I\'m used to it.  You prefer to argue with ignorance, I think I\'ve proven that.  I have the same degree you have pal, I talk sense, you talk out of your ass.

Win2000 is a home client and so is WinXp, both are very solid.  That\'s beyond the point, we were talking about monopoly (Well, I was talking about monopoly in a corporate sense, you, in the board game sense.  We met in the middle.)

This is why I didn\'t want to get into this with you: you obviously don\'t know the first thing about economics, and you don\'t care.  Your ideology is so rigid that it allows for no knowledge, alteration or compromise.  You truly must believe that the answers to all question reside in your head, that everyone here are infedels and you are the keeper of all truth.  Your idea of a monopoly: a company that exercises no innovation and spends no money on research and development (aka MS).  Your idea of proof that the PS2 is a great peice of archetecture: quotes from Sony or their employees.

I have the same degree you have pal, I talk sense, you talk out of your ass.

lol, now thats pretty funny
watchdog, you talk outta your ass more then most people in this forum

Your like my little brother, thinks he knows everything, is better then everyone else, and is never wrong.

Had Sony contracted Nvidea, they would have got a custom GF2 and that could do some pretty amazing things. Hell my GF2 runs any PC game I put in at at least a constant 30fps.

No, Nvida went with MS simply beacuse it cost them virtually nothing, the card would appear on the PC market soon enough.. its pretty easy to put a graphics card in a PC.. oops, I mean Xbox

Working with sony would have forced them to rethink their whole card to work with the ps2 processor and various chips.. thats just too much work.

Uh-huh. I remember a thread where you were the one to dig them up and all you could find were confessionals from Sony, Square, Naughty Dog and other 1st and 2nd party devs.

Square.. a 2nd party! when did that happen?

But why force them?

Nobody is forcing developers to create their own code and effects (which are fully custimizeable and allow for a more lifelike game.. unlike the xboxes manufactered effects0
Every month it seems there is another 3rd party product aimed at helping developers, especially smaller ones, make games for the ps2. While at the same time allowing for freedom. Once again this is why Sony created this archtexture.

I rebutted with 3RD PARTY interviews and quotes and you then called those 3RD PARTY devs biased and uninformed and continued to quote yourself. This is typical Seven.

For every 3rd party comment you come across, I can come across a postive 3rd party comment. Your point is moot


Also, my final comment
You attacked Seven quite personally, much more then Seven attacked you. People use such tactic, especcially to the extent at which you used them, he or she has nothing else to use. Seven aparently won this debate.

Originally posted by IronFist

He\'s been working in his garden again.  When he\'s in his garden, he forgets all about how people who love video games and love talking about the industry come here to talk about it.  I don\'t want to start the whole video games VS gardens argument again, but ddaryl remember what we told you last time: To each his own!

Originally posted by Ryu
So long as we\'re arguing about little things like that, let\'s not forget who has roughly 3000 more posts then any other member.  Besides, you are abcent T for months and you judge me for what I am doing with this board?  You don\'t even have a clue as to what happened.  That\'s ok though, all is well when you\'re "outside in the sun" or whatever. :rolleyes:

LMAO

sorry lads

these debates are lame, and those who participate in them on a constant basis are on par with it.

I\'ll just enjoy laughing at ya\'s

and for the last time... about 6700 of my post were made while I was making $30.00 and hour at my job. Since I\'m a maintenance man I only work on equip that is down, and most of the time the machines are running. Therefore I spend some of my time between jobs posting here.
I don\'t post in my freetime, got way to much other things going on

these debates are lame, and those who participate in them on a constant basis are on par with it.

I\'ll just enjoy laughing at ya\'s

Then why even bother visiting these boards if we\'re all so lame?  What even keeps you here in the first place?  If talking about games and debating about them is so god awful (according to you, discussing them is "laughable") then why even bother looking to see what it is we are talking about?  Pointless.  You insult us for doing it and we insult you for viewing it at all.  Why bother?  It\'s like talking to a brick wall.

If you really have nothing nice to say about how we spend our free time, then maybe you shouldn\'t say anything at all and sideline yourself like you have been for months.

I must say this is one of the more impressive debates...and one I don\'t care to get in to.

Starting out, both Watchdog and Seven made some very valid points and I didn\'t know who to side with.  But as usual, Watchdog comes through.  Seven, it seems you are losing ground on which to stand on...

Chrono...it\'s always fun to see your 2 cents.  :clown:

Ddaryl, why did you even bother posting in here then?

[Living-In-Clip]

Impressive thread, I am surprised as I didn\'t expect this thread to take off. I am just going to make a list of what I think about the thread, instead of qouting and giving a remark to every one deserved (and there is a lot.)

• Sony does not have a monoply of the electronic entertainment industry. You cannot confuse great sells with a company doing illegal practices or havin a complete monopoly over the industry. Microsoft had some questionable tactics in the computer industry that earned them their reputation. Not to mention there is still healthy competition for Sony. Now, if Nintendo ever went third party and MS drops out (as I expect them to next generation, unless something drastic happens), then Sony would have complete control over the industry and a monopoly over it. This would be the death of gaming, in my opinion. Anytime one company has control over an industry, quality control takes a step back and the flood of bad games and what not would kill the market within a year\'s time.
• Microsoft earned their reputation with the hardcore computer community due to their business tactics. The general idea was it killed progress for certain things and it did to a certain degree. At the same time, it did help the community in some ways. Bill Gates was one of the first people to speak up and say that software should be paid for it should not be given away on diskettes, like they was at the time. Later on, Microsoft earned a bad reputation with the casual users due to buggy OS\'s and constant problems. There was nothing more infuritating than getting BSoD (blue screen of death) all the time. To further that point, I\'ll point out WinME, a diaster in all manner.

This is not to say that Microsoft has not put out some quality products. Certain service packs for Win NT were stable and great. Then there is Win2K and now even WINXP, which is a stable and quality OS. The problem is, their bad reputation is large enough with everyone now that it overshadows any enhancements and moves forward made by the company. It is a shame actually.

I personally do not believe MS is the nasty evil boogieman. I do disagree with certain things they have done in the market, at the same time I do understand the point of it. As Bill Gates himself said in an interview for A&E (I believe), he uses any information to his own advantage. He is first and foremost a business man. To be a succesful business man, you have to make questionable business choices, but at the end of the day, if you are at the top of the market, that is all that matters.

• I\'m not quite sure what your problem is Ddaryl. You\'ve posted in two threads now trying to enforce your opinion on how no one around here has a life , because of these debates, yet I recall you throwing a fit over in the Tribal Dragon\'s forum, because of the name being changed. You went practicaly beserk over in that forum over a simple name change for an online PS2 clan.. So, where exactly do you get off on pointing out and making fun of other people for having a healthy debate about the industry they enjoy?

Choice qoute\'s from that thread.

Why cause you don\'t like it
Cry me a ****ing river

WHaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

the other is just pure communism, but according to you and a few others your method was the correct way to handle it

I have to say its just ****ed up how this all of a sudden happened


I think the name should be placed back and if yuo want to have a re-vote then suggest it to the regulars and will re-vote

un-****ing-believable

There is many more of you acting like a five year old who did not get his way, because of a PS2 ONLINE CLAN .

My point? Before you sit back and post this crap over here and judge everyone for taking this serious, look at yourself and serious you\'re taking trivial things.

Furthermore, for what it is worth, I think Ryu has taken a great step to getting this forum back on track.  And even if you disagree with him, at least he is trying to do something, instead of just sit back and watch it go to hell, unlike some people. What I don\'t get is the fact you don\'t even post in console debating, yet you come over here just to nitpick and point stuff out.

If you don\'t like how things are being ran around here (and you obviously don\'t, with your constant complaining as of late) than either 1) do something about it, constructive wise, 2) quit posting here and as Ryu said "go back to the sidelines" or 3) go enjoy some more of that "real life" that you are always talking about.

The only thing I can say I agree with that you posted , is when you said...

Just play the games have fun

• Kudos to Rich for making this thread!. ;)

In a way sony is a monopoly they have to have at least 80% of the console market world wide. I mean as far as consoles goes they own the market. MS and Nintendo don\'t even compare.
 
They have all the fans and all the developers seems like a monopoly to me. The console industry is all sony rite now.


AND ddaryl why did you post here if you where going to be so negative? Makes no sense to even post.