New topic! Is Sony too much of a monopoly on the gaming industry?

I didn\'t attack him personally.  Calling someone ignorant isn\'t an insult .  I\'m ignorant in the field of biochemistry.  See, Chrono,  dictionaries are a wonderful thing.

Anyway, the only one here that pisses me off is ddaryl.  You certainly have no purpose here.  I also find it odd that you make judgements about us having a debate.  The fact that you post here at all is a small irony, but that you come in here simply to look down upon us with your nose in the air is what troubles me.

I could look down upon you for being a maintainance man who enjoys gardening.  I could ask all sorts of questions as to how you screwed up your life up so badly as to find yourself toting a wrench and wearing a tool belt for the rest of your life earning a measly hourly wage (who comes in here to brag about it no less).  I could analyse said sad life and come to the conclusion that you feel so insecure about your life that you need to come here and feign superiority because it\'s the only thing that can begin to repair the fractures in your frail ego.  

I could do all of these things, but like you and your choice not to post in lame threads, I\'m better than that.


Note to Chrono: while you have that dictionary handy, check and see if that was a personal attack.

The main thing that bothered me about your post Watchdog was how much of your post was spent looking at past posts about Seven. Seven in his post did not spend paragraphs talking about your posts in the past did he?

It\'s all fair game so long as it\'s relevant to the argument.

Originally posted by Ryu


Then why even bother visiting these boards if we\'re all so lame?  What even keeps you here in the first place?  If talking about games and debating about them is so god awful (according to you, discussing them is "laughable") then why even bother looking to see what it is we are talking about?  Pointless.  You insult us for doing it and we insult you for viewing it at all.  Why bother?  It\'s like talking to a brick wall.

If you really have nothing nice to say about how we spend our free time, then maybe you shouldn\'t say anything at all and sideline yourself like you have been for months.

its the same thing over and over and over and over and over again

I usually come to debate to catch the Xbox news from the Xbox lads

I also usually ignore the debates here, but figuresd I\'d ruffle some feathers by speaking my opinion on those who think its worthwhile to debate this crap

I have no problems discussing games, but there are maybe 1/2 dozen new posts on the main forium in regards to games every day. Not many peopel discussing games and gameplay

what so many of you are more interested in is sales charts, and who\'s got a monopoly and who is better. If i see one more sales chart I\'ll puke.

just play the friggin games

but hey I just thought I point out how laughable it is to see the same people arguing the same points for the past year

I find it strange that a few of you do not see how incredibly redudndant it is.

hey go back to your debate about the completely uselss topics of who\'s better, who has a monopoly or why system Y is so much better. I\'m sure the 100 time you\'ve debated it everyone will align and agree.

I just can\'t help but get a chuckle out of it, especially when some of the replys here are college essays in length

I also usually ignore the debates here, but figuresd I\'d ruffle some feathers by speaking my opinion on those who think its worthwhile to debate this crap

We had a name for this... what was it again?  Oh yah...

TROLLING

That just about sums that up.

Who raves about it? You? My point is that just because you are a big company with a lot pf resources doesn\'t mean you can make anything you want. The fact of the matter is that Nvidea, ATi etc are industry leaders for a reason. If Sony/Tosh could make chips better than anyone else, why don\'t they? Because they can\'t. I would never buy a TV from MS just because they are a big company with lots of resources.

Arstechnica being one of those and along with them a few others as well. You\'ll even have Fireingsquad pointing out the potential of the hardware - it seems to me you\'re the only one who accuses Sony for making bad chips. Someone who has no experience with designing chips what so ever. Ain\'t that funny?

And comparing the EE as a chip against something from ATi or Nvidia is moot. The PS2 architecture was designed for graphics processing, something Nvidia and ATi are limited through a PC architecture. So it\'s really pathetic to discuss who makes the better chips, because they\'re so different. Both companies make the best in their field: Nvidia/Ati for making a x86 architecture push some nice graphics and Sony/Toshiba for designing a chipset that is dedicated 100% to graphic processing. BTW: did you know that the PS2 board was rated among the fastest supercomputers in rendering? This however doesn\'t prove if it\'s a good chipset, but should be enough evidence that the PS2 does not have a bad designed chip.

Had Sony contracted Nvidea, they would have got a custom GF2 and that could do some pretty amazing things. Hell my GF2 runs any PC game I put in at at least a constant 30fps. That\'s at least on par with anything the PS2 can do right now.

If you say so... :rolleyes:
Yeah, okay - since PS2 are Xbox more or less up to par (one might argue again, but the differences aren\'t far apart enough), I\'m really shocked to hear that Xbox is said to have a customized GF3 in there. Point is, Sony went the right way and the PS2 isn\'t maxed out yet. But PS2 certainly is pushing out some stuff I\'ve never seen on a GF2. Nice try Watchdog. :rolleyes:

Uh-huh. I remember a thread where you were the one to dig them up and all you could find were confessionals from Sony, Square, Naughty Dog and other 1st and 2nd party devs. I rebutted with 3RD PARTY interviews and quotes and you then called those 3RD PARTY devs biased and uninformed and continued to quote yourself. This is typical Seven.

Gosh, you have a really bad memory. That discussion was about what developers thought of PS2 hardware - not PSX days. Get your facts staight.

When anyone praises the xbox over the PS2 (even on these boards--remember Bioware, Digital Illusions or Epic?) you always come back with they have been bought or they don\'t know what they are talking about. Why is that Seven? You repeatedly call into question the knowledge and expertise of PROFFESSIONAL designers who work for 3RD party devs, all the while asking everyone here to believe your thoughts and views over theirs. How does this make sense to you, because I\'d really like to know?

As Chrono said, find me one and I\'ll get you one too. Your point is moot. Even if we get all those "facts", it proves nothing. This debate is about if the chipdesign of the PS2 is good, remember? As I already said above (which you obviously ignored) - People who prefer the PS2 design over a typicall x86 architecture certainly know why. Just like people who prefer Linux to Window (of course most people who rave on about Windows have absolutely no idea, yet someone like you would take that as facts).

Developers enjoy the Xbox for what it is: a easy way to get good graphics. Developers who like PS2 better certainly no why too: Freedom of development. (Damn, why do I have to repeat myself with you?) Just because X developer says one is better than the other doesn\'t mean it is - it\'s personal preference and 2 completely different mentalities.

But perhaps my favourite Seven quote of all time has to be (and I believe this is in rebuttal to one of those infamous discussions): "I just finished a conversation with someone who works at Square and they said..." LOL, that is classic.

I and some other members at the board actually have contact with PS2 developers/developers out there. Just because you don\'t believe it isn\'t my problem. However, this has nothing to do with the ongoing debate. Good job changing topics again. :rolleyes:

The big negative side--it NEEDLESSLY forces devs to work that much harder, that much longer, forcing a longer dev cycle, causing them to lose money and generally pisses them off. The xbox gives devs the choice--they can use the preexisting stuff and maximize their dev cycle, or they can throw those away and write their own. Sometimes there is no need to code everything from scratch, scrutinizing the code, optimizing endlessly, but the PS2 forces them to do it anyway.

You\'re complaining for the developers? Please let them do so themselves. As I said, both enjoy different postive aspect of both systems: XBox of being easy to make good graphics - PS2 for it\'s potential and freedom of development. It\'s not as if "one system is evil and the other one is better in all aspects". You sound like a little kid defending his system.

But why force them? The only thing that is ultimately rewarding is a paycheck and if given a choice those devs would rather work less hard, less hours to get the same results. If you have a quote from some who doesn\'t recieve paychecks from Sony, then I\'d love to hear a dev say that working on the PS2 is better than the xbox, that I\'d love to see. Unless you are a complete masochist, you want to express yourself and get your vision on screen. You don\'t want to wrestle with the machine to get a simple effect out of it. I have a question, how do you type and hug your PS2 at the same time?

If they don\'t want to, then they either should quit their job or move to Xbox. As simple as that. PS2 gives them both ways too, thanks to Sony. Newer libraries, better documentations, 3d rendering platforms - it\'s all there for developers to use. I don\'t know what your point is. Now for the third time (probably 4th): you have to types of developers, the ones that enjoy being creative with a system that want a system that\'s easy to tap performance from and others that want freedom.

This is why I didn\'t want to get into this with you: you obviously don\'t know the first thing about economics, and you don\'t care.

I think one member already said I brought up some good points. It\'s fine by me if yo want to crisize my knowledge and debate about "How I see the world", but honestly, what do you hope to prove? Damage my credibility? :rolleyes:

EDIT: Sorry for the typos. I\'m at work, so I didn\'t have too much time for this reply.

_________
I usually come to debate to catch the Xbox news from the Xbox lads
_________

Go to Teamxbox or xbox.IGN.  No need to come here, no one missed you.

________
I also usually ignore the debates here, but figuresd I\'d ruffle some feathers by speaking my opinion on those who think its worthwhile to debate this crap
________


I usually ignore people like you as I pass them on my way to my office.   Speaking of crap, isn\'t there a leaky toilet you could be
fixing?  See I like to ruffle feathers too.


__________
I have no problems discussing games, but there are maybe 1/2 dozen new posts on the main forium in regards to games every day. Not many peopel discussing games and gameplay
___________


Then again, stop coming or make a post that is suitable for a man of your stature and esteem.


____________
but hey I just thought I point out how laughable it is to see the same people arguing the same points for the past year
____________


I\'ve never seen a Sony=monopoly thread before.


__________
I find it strange that a few of you do not see how incredibly redudndant it is.
____________


I find it strange  that you don\'t see how incredibly redundant you are.  I also find it strange that you are debating about the validity of debating in this thread.  You have a strange way of making points.


_____________
hey go back to your debate about the completely uselss topics of who\'s better, who has a monopoly or why system Y is so much better. I\'m sure the 100 time you\'ve debated it everyone will align and agree.
______________


Hey go back to your toilets and flowers and continue to spin your wheels in life.   Like I said, no one missed you.  

____________
I just can\'t help but get a chuckle out of it, especially when some of the replys here are college essays in length
____________


Glad we amuse you.  You sadden me and reinforce why I went to school.  I\'m being antisocial and abrasive, but with trolls like you it\'s seems like the right thing to do.



Now on to Seven:



Firing Squad MUCH prefered the xbox.

PS2 and xbox are not on par.

Who\'s talking about PSX?

And no this discussion was about monopolies originally, then you in your illogical ways said Sony was not a monopoly because they innovated with the PS2--lol.  I said innovation has nothing to do with monopolies, it was arrogance and bad engineers.  Ryu then said they weren\'t bad engineers, I agreed and ammended my comment to say misguided engineers--we both agreed.  You of course argued.  I explained what a monopoly really is.  You of course argued and continue to do so.

Devs who like PS2 archetecture = Sony\'s employees and devs they have stock in.  Devs who prefer xbox = everyone else. Theres some pattern there I\'m sure of it, but I can\'t figure it out.

Hey Seven, next time you are at Square HQ, tell Tomoyuki Takechi I say hi.  We\'re old friends.  I was his best man.  LOL!


________
You\'re complaining for the developers? Please let them do so themselves. As I said, both enjoy different postive aspect of both systems: XBox of being easy to make good graphics - PS2 for it\'s potential and freedom of development. It\'s not as if "one system is evil and the other one is better in all aspects".
________


I\'ve been through this a hundred times, read carefully this time: the xbox also allows for freedom of development.  The xbox gives devs the choice--and you saying you can\'t be creative with the xbox hardware is completely ridiculous--what degree did you say you had and where did you get it, because your theories sound like like they originated at Sony HQ in the file called PS2 propaganda.  

With the PS2 the devs choices are--using libraries that are still developing (and this is still not easy, only easier) or pull their hair out doing it the "creative method"  (or what normal people call the pain in the ass, throw my debug kit out the window method).

With xbox, you can code your own--friendly and familiar or you can use libraries that have been developed for years.

And you tell me this is about on par.  Give your head a shake and make sure nothing is loose up there.

And even with new libraries, the xbox is still much easier to develop for.  You have absolutely no argument here, yet you manage to write on at length about it.  I never said one system is evil, you\'re the one that NEVER has anything good to say about xbox, you tell me who\'s the kid defending his system.  In fact, outside of "debates" with you and Chrono, I say more good things about PS2 than xbox.


__________
I think one member already said I brought up some good points. It\'s fine by me if yo want to crisize my knowledge and debate about "How I see the world", but honestly, what do you hope to prove? Damage my credibility?
__________


You want to bring up support?  Okay.... and that member was Chrono--lol, no wonder you didn\'t mention his name.  Ginko went on to say "you are losing ground on which to stand on".  A pretty apt statement.  Ryu disagreed with you.  This is also a PS2 board, wouldn\'t you think there\'d be more people willing to take your side here?  There certainly are many people here who dislike the xbox.  What if we went to an xbox board, how much support do you imagine you\'d find there?  And me?  Uh-huh.

The fact of the matter is that you are arguing against points that RATIONAL and OBJECTIVE people know to be true.

Xbox is more powerful.

Xbox is MUCH easier to program for.

The VAST MAJORITY of 3rd party devs prefer programming for the xbox.

PS2 is a technical nightmare no matter how innovative it might be.

Frankly, I don\'t know how you can even argue these points.  I consider myself able to argue just about anything fairly convincingly, but with those points I don\'t know where I\'d begin.

[BizioEE]

If you say so...  
Yeah, okay - since PS2 are Xbox more or less up to par (one might argue again, but the differences aren\'t far apart enough), I\'m really shocked to hear that Xbox is said to have a customized GF3 in there. Point is, Sony went the right way and the PS2 isn\'t maxed out yet. But PS2 certainly is pushing out some stuff I\'ve never seen on a GF2. Nice try Watchdog.

Nope,XBox is far more powerful than PS2 and easier to develop for...every unbiased dev know that...

second...the NV2a is not a customized GF3...it is based on the next generation of geforce3 architecture, but is far more powerful - it incorporates technology that is in development for the next generation beyond geforce3.
For example,geometry processing performance is 2-3x that of geforce3...it\'s not just a Geforce3 with an extra vertex shader. It is actually based on the NV25 but also has elements from the next generation beyond it. (Presumably the NV30).
It\'s a customized GF4...and if you take Mhz to Mhz,the NV2a is more powerful in processing polys than the GF4 Ti4600 !

 I\'ve been through this a hundred times, read carefully this time: the xbox also allows for freedom of development. The xbox gives devs the choice--and you saying you can\'t be creative with the xbox hardware is completely ridiculous--what degree did you say you had and where did you get it, because your theories sound like like they originated at Sony HQ in the file called PS2 propaganda.

With the PS2 the devs choices are--using libraries that are still developing (and this is still not easy, only easier) or pull their hair out doing it the "creative method" (or what normal people call the pain in the ass, throw my debug kit out the window method).

With xbox, you can code your own--friendly and familiar or you can use libraries that have been developed for years.

And you tell me this is about on par. Give your head a shake and make sure nothing is loose up there.

And even with new libraries, the xbox is still much easier to develop for. You have absolutely no argument here, yet you manage to write on at length about it. I never said one system is evil, you\'re the one that NEVER has anything good to say about xbox, you tell me who\'s the kid defending his system. In fact, outside of "debates" with you and Chrono, I say more good things about PS2 than xbox.

100% agreed with Watchdog...one of the few honest and intelligent members in this boring and dying forum...

If only people opened their eyes,used their own brains and stop believing each bull**** from Sony devs. and Sony whores(ND?)

Freedom in development? Let\'s see...fighting with the hardware to achieve only good graphics,old game-play,no fresh elements,short games...and why?  After 2 years we have J&D(old game-play and short),Soul R2(old game-play and short),Ico(very good,but short),DMC(good but too easy and short)...

But you have freedom in development :rolleyes: ...in what sense?

You wanna use both Vu0 and Vu1 to process polys with lighting,shading and other effects?  you can do it...but still you can\'t match the NV2a in this department and under the "same" conditions...and you have ridiculous physics,collision-system,animations and AI like side effects...

You wanna use all the power of Vu0 to do physics and AI and a percentage of the power of Vu1 to do extra sound effects? you can do it...but you\'re sacrificing power for graphics and the XBox is still far superior in the sound department...so...where\'s the freedom?

...can you create your personal bump-mapping engine via software? what a freedom :rolleyes: ...a waste of time and resources...more usefull to devote to game-play and longevity...and and? what\'s the result? we\'ll see when Doom3 on the XBox will be available...(when talented dev will create great games on the X)...
...I want freedom to spend most of time on game-play and longevity rather than to create my personal bump-mapping engine with a crappy result in comparison...

...it\'s so clear when you look at PS2 games...after 2 years we have,overall,easy and short games with old game play and good graphics(and the quality of the images inferior to DC...shame to Sony!...the ToyStory graphics machine:rolleyes: )

You want to bring up support? Okay.... and that member was Chrono--lol, no wonder you didn\'t mention his name. Ginko went on to say "you are losing ground on which to stand on". A pretty apt statement. Ryu disagreed with you. This is also a PS2 board, wouldn\'t you think there\'d be more people willing to take your side here? There certainly are many people here who dislike the xbox. What if we went to an xbox board, how much support do you imagine you\'d find there? And me? Uh-huh.

The fact of the matter is that you are arguing against points that RATIONAL and OBJECTIVE people know to be true.

Xbox is more powerful.

Xbox is MUCH easier to program for.

The VAST MAJORITY of 3rd party devs prefer programming for the xbox.

PS2 is a technical nightmare no matter how innovative it might be.

It\'s obvious Wacthdog:)...

...he\'s not credibility in a PS2 forum...and I\'ve seen and I\'m seeing people like him on XBox boards mocked and mocked again(Aradin=Bossieman)...when speaking about the arguments"PS2 and XBox almost on par" and "the freedom? of development"...

...End of the Story!

hey Bozzo is back !

what ever happened to "don\'t bother banning me as this will be the last time i post here !"

ah well i supose that now your back ill just pass onto mm what you said about me and my Family in Italian !

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by ooseven
hey Bozzo is back !

what ever happened to "don\'t bother banning me as this will be the last time i post here !"

ah well i supose that now your back ill just pass onto mm what you said about me and my Family in Italian !

well...I read Ryu\'s thread and I\'ve decided to do something positive for this console debating!

Try to do the same;)


Bozzo? what?  I\'m cool,nice and handsome...and I do not care about your insults...it\'s a videogame forum,let\'s debate about videogames,ok?


and mm knows I did it to capture\'s someone attention...I never insulted a "mod" before...and I will never!

Ryu did what me and Whatchdog were asking...
...and now I apologize to mm and Ryu! I know I was wrong...and I did it only for the reason mm knows!

ps: ooseven,don\'t cry at mm like a little girl...stop to be a pimp(the reason why you\'re a """mod""")...and start to act like a real mod...please...

Freedom in development? Let\'s see...fighting with the hardware to achieve only good graphics,old game-play,no fresh elements,short games...and why? After 2 years we have J&D(old game-play and short),Soul R2(old game-play and short),Ico(very good,but short),DMC(good but too easy and short)...

You were off to a good start until you said that.  One thing (development) has nothing to do with the other (game length).  Since when did games have to be over 25 hours?  Think about the games you mentioned and the way they are played.  Just how different can platform games be done?  I guess we\'ll see when the more powerful system actually gets some good ones right?  Not only that, but imagine playing those games you mentioned for 25 hours... DMC?  25 hours long?  That would never get boring for you?  Ico being 25 hours would never be too long for you?  Let\'s not forget sequals are games that add on to the original, not redefine the genre as well...

However, since you see these games as downfalls of the hardware, name me the Xbox games that are super long and are not tired and old gameplay wise.  The top three selling games on the system (Halo, DOA3, and Project Gotham) have all been done before in some way.  An FPS is still an FPS, DOA2 is still very similar to DOA3, and peoject gotham shares plenty of similarities with it\'s early Sega counterpart.  You blame developers for making those "unsatisfactory" games for the PS2 and yet no one has done any better on the Xbox even after you herald it as the greatest system of all.

It\'s just funny people complain about game length and yet never did back in the days of SNES and NES.  If you played those games nowadays, you\'d zip through them as fast as you do PS2 games.  It\'s like all because gaming is mainstream, the games should be 40+ hours with more extras then even I can count, but that isn\'t how it\'s been done and it\'s never been done that way before.  As for original gameplay, well, when was the last time we saw original gameplay ideas?  I think it was around the Dreamcast\'s launch...

[Bobs_Hardware]

ive been offline for a few days and missed out on so much  

and bozzo is back??  egads!  what is the world coming too..

id just like to say sony has no monopoly on the gaming industry and it never will..

and how can you have too much of a monopoly..?  you either have a monopoly or you dont.  Its not like therer are varying degrees..

Firing Squad MUCH prefered the xbox.

PS2 and xbox are not on par.

May I remind you that this isn\'t a PS2 vs Xbox debate? I remember you making a "very" intelligent remark about how "arrogance that lead to the design and bad engineers (later to be changed by you to misguided engineers)." I fail to see what this has anything to do about which console is better, holds more power or what ever. Me bringing up firingsquad, Arstechnica and those few articles had nothing do with any comparasments, but just to prove that there are sites that rave about the PS2\'s architecture or see its potential. It\'s funny how you drift of to this lame comparasment topic again... nice job, again, for changing/twisting topics.

Who\'s talking about PSX?

Bad memory, huh? Let me requote some stuff out of your post from page #1 that got us to PSX:

With Tosh\'s design, people took so long to figure it out, that there was no time for a dissenting viewpoint because the hype machine was in full swing and everyone was obsessed with Sony. If they wanted to please developers and customers they would have went with known archetecture and not alienated their developers. It wouldn\'t have taken almost 2 years for the machine\'s potencial to be realized. But Sony didn\'t care because they knew the devs and the public would come because where else would they go? This is arrogance (and burgeoning on monopoly).

I replied:

It\'s funny how you talk for developers, yet you complete forget the fact that a lot of them wanted a design that let them to code on the metal during the PSX days. You make it as it\'s all Sony who forced their hardware on all developers. Yeah, lets blame Sony. Sony actually did a good thing and as PC enthusiastic sites show over the net, the PS2 hardware has been well received by those developers. Developers actually like the PS2 hardware due to its nature giving freedom and letting developers really explore the metal. And where would we be today if everyone chose to stay on the x86 architecture? It is clear that as a software engineer you have to always learn new technologies, new programming language and new hardware.

You of course replied in the typical maner by saying:

I think it\'s funny how you make things up. (..)

I replied saying that I wasn\'t going to dig up articles that are a few years old. You then brought in our last debate (one of our first) where you said something about some interviews and articles that I brought up. That debate was specifically on PS2 vs Xbox. The debate however above, had nothing to do with PS2 though - but all about how PSX devs wanted more freedom and challenges which Sony took into consideration when designing the PS2\'s core. That proves enough that Sony did not force their hard and "evil" architecture on the developers. And even if you don\'t change your mind: every game-company has the choice which system to develop for. Bashing on PS2 behind this reasoning is pathetic.

And no this discussion was about monopolies originally, then you in your illogical ways said Sony was not a monopoly because they innovated with the PS2--lol. I said innovation has nothing to do with monopolies, it was arrogance and bad engineers. Ryu then said they weren\'t bad engineers, I agreed and ammended my comment to say misguided engineers--we both agreed. You of course argued. I explained what a monopoly really is. You of course argued and continue to do so.

Have we been following the same arguement? I don\'t think so. As I explained above already once, I just replied to RichG who said that Sony has a monopoly and made some "flawed" assumption to why he thinks so and what the PS2 launch had to do with it. My quote about the innovatice architecture was just a reply to prove otherwise. Has this got to do anything with monopoly? I don\'t think it\'s far from it - I still stand behind my original reasoning: a company who has a monopoly will spend less cash on "innovation" simply because it\'s not necessary due to no competition. If Sony had a monopoly, I very much doubt they would invest those big bucks for a innovative and expensive chip design for their console.

Devs who like PS2 archetecture = Sony\'s employees and devs they have stock in. Devs who prefer xbox = everyone else. Theres some pattern there I\'m sure of it, but I can\'t figure it out.

Let me amend your comment:
"Devs who like Xbox architecture = Microsoft employees and pc-devs they have stock in. Devs who prefer PS2 = everyone else. Theres some pattern there I\'m sure of it, but I can\'t figure it out."

Strange how I can twist this arguement, isn\'t it? But wait, maybe that\'s because there\'s 2 sides of how you choose to look at things? I personally think my arguement was better about how both sides enjoy different positive aspects. But you of course, have to debate to a point where one is absolutely "evil" and the other one is "supiriour". :rolleyes:

I\'ve been through this a hundred times, read carefully this time: the xbox also allows for freedom of development. The xbox gives devs the choice--and you saying you can\'t be creative with the xbox hardware is completely ridiculous--what degree did you say you had and where did you get it, because your theories sound like like they originated at Sony HQ in the file called PS2 propaganda.

I didn\'t say you can\'t be creative with Xbox - to be quite precise, it was the other way around: Xbox developers can be more creative than PS2 devs. Why? Because on Xbox devs have more libraries, a architecture that isn\'t new, friendlier developmentkit and tools. As I also said (which you probably "magically" missed), is that PS2 developers have to rethink every single step of their 3d engine (if self-coded). They need to tap the VUs power and that is only by using prewritten rendering tools, or (you guessed it) Assembler, VU Microcode. No libraries they can use and no "friendly" development that ensures easy development if they write their engines on their own. Now why should this hold more freedom? Simple, instead of using libraries others wrote, you write your own that can be customized accoardingly to your 3d engine. Thanks to this way of coding (down to the level where you directly access the CPU cores), you can customize everything to your games. Hence this "freedom" PS2 developers are doing things that weren\'t thought of being possible: DTS ingame, progressive video output, no loading times, good quality textures, good image quality, AA and bump mapping. It\'s a bit like comparing Java to C/C++. Java might be easier to do more complex stuff, but if you know your way around in C/C++, you can go much deeper into your program and the results are much more impressive. Make no mistake about it though, I\'m not saying that PS2 will look "better", but the results devs might get out of a 2 year older system will be more impressive if the talent is there.

Now before you argue again that Sony gives headaches and other crap like that, let me continue: Once developers get that "learning curve" behind them and start to know the architecture by heart, they will start to play around with the system experimenting the pro\'s and con\'s of the system. For the small developers who don\'t have the resources or nerves to get that deep into that system, you still have the tools from Sony that will make development easier: Performance Analizer 2, Renderwares, C/C++ for the VU\'s etc. It\'s not as if Sony is forcing their platform on to anyone: everyone has a choice. If their not happy they either chose the wrong job or wrong company. This is simply no excuse.

And you tell me this is about on par. Give your head a shake and make sure nothing is loose up there.

PS2 and Xbox are "graphically" up to par at the moment. One might argue that \'X\' game looks better than \'Y\' game, but the differences aren\'t too much apart to really make a clear judgement. To the casual they are up to par at the moment.

And even with new libraries, the xbox is still much easier to develop for. You have absolutely no argument here, yet you manage to write on at length about it.

Where did I say that with new libraries PS2 is easier? I don\'t recall me saying anything like this? Good job twsisting arguements again. :rolleyes:
I was just backing the PS2\'s "complicated" architecture against your arguement of Sony forcing their "hard to develop for" system onto developers.

Quote by you (for the above arguement):
But why force them? The only thing that is ultimately rewarding is a paycheck and if given a choice those devs would rather work less hard, less hours to get the same results.

You want to bring up support? Okay.... and that member was Chrono--lol, no wonder you didn\'t mention his name. Ginko went on to say "you are losing ground on which to stand on". A pretty apt statement. Ryu disagreed with you. This is also a PS2 board, wouldn\'t you think there\'d be more people willing to take your side here? There certainly are many people here who dislike the xbox. What if we went to an xbox board, how much support do you imagine you\'d find there? And me? Uh-huh.

I don\'t really care what the members think and I am certainly not going to back down from my opinion. Yes, Ryu disagreed with me on 1 point, which I backed up. He hasn\'t responded to my last post directed to him, so I take it that it\'s been sorted out. So to cut this short, I could care less how much support I get in here. Just because someone at the forum thinks I or You are wrong, doesn\'t mean that you\'ve won the debate. I could very well bring in uncle bob and get some backup. Wouldn\'t have much impact on the debate would it? :rolleyes: So, WHO CARES?

Xbox is more powerful.

Since when are we debating which system is more powerful? Or, when did I say otherwise in THIS thread or debate?

Xbox is MUCH easier to program for.

WHen did I say PS2 is much easier? Is THIS necessary?

The VAST MAJORITY of 3rd party devs prefer programming for the xbox.

They prefer Xbox for what it is: easy and cheap way to make good graphics while being creative. Developers like PS2 for what it is too: powerful technology that holds lots of freedom to achieve new things that weren\'t thought possible. I could make this real lame and ask you to get me some interviews where developers quote this, i.e: "I prefer Xbox programming because..." but, I think there\'s no need to stept down to that level. After all it\'s self explained that this arguement is resolved by what I said a few lines further up (highlighted in green).

PS2 is a technical nightmare no matter how innovative it might be.

Quote by Watchdog, some lonely person who holds absolutely no experience in PS2 development. (I\'ll let people judge this "credible" statement of yours)

Frankly, I don\'t know how you can even argue these points. I consider myself able to argue just about anything fairly convincingly, but with those points I don\'t know where I\'d begin.

Franky, I don\'t remember argueing about half those points you listed. :rolleyes: ... LOL.

It\'s strange though, seems to me you\'re much more passionate about upholding the name Xbox and Microsoft than you are about games...

Yeah, seeing as you have no ground with which to argue on, you resort to pointing out how I went astray with my tactics.  Seeing that you don\'t have any support here, you say it doesn\'t matter anyway.  Nice post.