VF4 is not good graphically ??

[BizioEE]

Dr Yassam,what do you think about my last post?  I\'d like to hear a honest opinion about this argument!:)

".. if the hits on PS2 are so major, and the built in hardware support is so minor.. how come PS2 is doing thesethings and XBox isnt? because the launch games were done on incomplete hardware?"

I\'m only passing through but...

... THPS3 on the XBox uses FSAA I believe, and it looks great!

However, the AA arguement can also be directed towards the GC, since it also has hardware support for AA which is not evident in it\'s current games. So the real question is WHY?

Well, whilst it\'s true that the *performance* hit on these consoles is minimal, FSAA does have a hit on *bandwidth*. Therefore it\'s not a feature which developers can just slap onto a game as an afterthought. Bandwidth has to be managed VERY carefully on ALL consoles, therefore any feature which has an impact on bandwidth MUST be catered for EARLY in a game\'s development, and AA is such a feature! Hence the lack of AA seen in most current XBox and GC games.

However, as developers become more familiar with the XBox and GC hardware and as more game engines are developed from the ground up on final hardware, expect to see FSAA becoming more common on both consoles in future (but even without it, the graphics look sharper and clearer than the PS2).

In fact, during E3, I wouldn\'t be surprised if many new XBox and GC games demonstrate FSAA as a feature. We\'ll see!

EDIT: Great posts BizioEE (I was typing this as you posted), all I can say is, I can now leave knowing this thread is in good hands!

[BizioEE]

Nice to hear from you:) ...

However, the AA arguement can also be directed towards the GC, since it also has hardware support for AA which is not evident in it\'s current games. So the real question is WHY?

Well, whilst it\'s true that the *performance* hit on these consoles is minimal, FSAA does have a hit on *bandwidth*. Therefore it\'s not a feature which developers can just slap onto a game as an afterthought. Bandwidth has to be managed VERY carefully on ALL consoles, therefore any feature which has an impact on bandwidth MUST be catered for EARLY in a game\'s development, and AA is such a feature! Hence the lack of AA seen in most current XBox and GC games.

THPS3 might be one of them (haven\'t seen that one out yet), but I believe the graphics are subpar compared to current other Xbox games.

This is very true - although AA is very bandwidth intense on all 3 consoles. And I could go back to a lot of articles that Watchdog loved to bring up where they quote that the bandwidth should be no problem at all while implementing AA. I agree that Xbox games will get past that too with the necessary programming tricks, but one must be aware that the bandwidth of either consoles will never grow larger than they already are. It will be interesting to see if the AA implementation will come at a cost.

Now to Bizio:

...you seem to not understand what I mean...you continue to get me wrong...Namco started to develop for PS2 in Q1 1999,I think...and only now they\'re achieving good result,they\'re finding new tricks,etc...do you think it\'s exclusive to PS2? even the best 3rd gen DC games make look the DC launch games and first games really sad...and you continue,and many others,to compare 2nd and 3rd gen of PS2 games to XBox and GCN launch games...I think it\'s really funny...above all because they can\'t even beat,overall,games like Halo and RL2!

Honestly, I was pretty happy with Tekken TAG with its great graphics. Okay, prerendered backgrounds compared to SC, but hey, it still looked great and put a lot of DC games to shame in the graphics department. I\'m not sure, but I\'m pretty sure Tekken TAG uses bump-mapping. The first games that really made the jump above DC\'s graphics are without doubt GT3, Baulders Gate, Final Fantasy and the bouncer.

it\'s how development works...and it\'s not exclusive to PS2...
...right now the best looking GCN and XBox games look sharper,cleaner than PS2 games...and how the hell do you think GCN and XBox games will look like in the next 2,3 years? like actual PS2 games? or even like future PS2 games? you guys are funny...

What is not exclusive to PS2? Freedom of development in that extend is simply not around on Xbox or GCN.

Why VF4 is full of horrible jaggies is AA can be done virtually with no hit in performance? if it\'s so easy to implement? AM2 are very talented,am I wrong?

Because AA isn\'t just there two switch on and off. You have to implement it and when you do, it takes skill and you need to know the hardware. Sony is doing their best to get developers implement it as easy as possible through newer documentations and libraries.

Why PS2 developers needed almost 2 years to make,overall,better looking games than DC ? because PS2 and DC are almost on par,overall? because of the incredible stepping magic learning curve of PS2 ? nope!...each console improves year by year...DC,PS2,GCN and XBox...the only difference is that you\'ll never see the PS2 fully pushed!

Please... 2 years? I already pointed out a few games that marked the PS2\'s being more powerful over DC. I don\'t know where you get your funny ideas.

[Bobs_Hardware]

BizioEE your first two paras are pretty much bull****    so ill go from here

Why VF4 is full of horrible jaggies is AA can be done virtually with no hit in performance? if it\'s so easy to implement? AM2 are very talented,am I wrong?

i have read developers from many developers saying that they might implement AA in their games, and that they really dont find the feature necessary.. in many instances they prefer the look of the sharper, clear cut graphics.. its possible that this is what they thought, or possibly they didnt care.. or possibly, like Yassam said.. they didnt think about it til the end and didnt want to rethink their whole engine..

many reasons, doesnt mean that its awefully difficult to implement  
~~ also read what seven said

Why PS2 developers needed almost 2 years to make,overall,better looking games than DC ? because PS2 and DC are almost on par,overall? because of the incredible stepping magic learning curve of PS2 ? nope!...each console improves year by year...DC,PS2,GCN and XBox...the only difference is that you\'ll never see the PS2 fully pushed!

DC was a far underrated console in the gameplay, and graphics department.. but it didnt take this long, Tekken Tag did look better than Soul Calibur (i dont care what anyone says) and Madden did look better than NFL2K.. as far as im concerned..

you know where im headed

now, even now PS2 games arent TOO much superior to DC games, most of the big name titles do look better, but.. IMO, only Jak & Daxter would be impossible on DC (without noticible downgrades)

because of the incredible stepping magic learning curve of PS2 ? nope!...

you dont know for sure.. but what we DEFINATELY do know is that PS2 is the most diffiocult todevelope for and its learning curve IS much steeper than XBox and GC.. full stop  .<<<---

whether you argue against it or not, PS2 has the most improvement in it from its launch games possible whether or not that happens, we shall see.  XBox and GC games will definately improve as well, but to the extent of PS2?  we shall see  

seven~~

Honestly, I was pretty happy with Tekken TAG with its great graphics. Okay, prerendered backgrounds compared to SC, but hey, it still looked great and put a lot of DC games to shame in the graphics department. I\'m not sure, but I\'m pretty sure Tekken TAG uses bump-mapping.

only some of the backgrounds are 2D, most of them are done in 3D and all the characters and helicopters etc. in the background look great.  the reflections in the water, and lighting effects are also brilliant (except the characters themselves dont reflect   )

also, it does not use bump mapping, just extremely high textures on the floors    and im not sure, but that might only be the last stage.. not sure tho.. still looks great

only some of the backgrounds are 2D, most of them are done in 3D and all the characters and helicopters etc. in the background look great. the reflections in the water, and lighting effects are also brilliant (except the characters themselves dont reflect  )

also, it does not use bump mapping, just extremely high textures on the floors  and im not sure, but that might only be the last stage.. not sure tho.. still looks great

No doubt, TTT looks and plays brilliant. I was never a fan of Tekken until I got this one. As for the bump mapping: the second last stage (with the fire in the background) just looks awesome and the floor is pretty incredible with lots of detail. If it\'s not bump mapped, then they sure did use lots of polygons and textures as you\'ll notice that the shade does go into the edges of the tiled floor. I think Yoshimitsu\'s level also does this, where the shades change accoarding to the floor. Pretty awesome for a launch game.

I do however agree that Tekken Tag looks better than SC.

[Bobs_Hardware]

yah, thats the level i meant *is incredibly stupid*

Originally posted by BizioEE
even the best 3rd gen DC games make look the DC launch games and first games really sad

I\'ve heard from several separate individuals, in their opinion the graphics of the DC never advanced beyond Soul Caliber. Any DC owners besides Bizio care to comment?


Bizio,
Have you played VF4 or is your trash talk being manufactured out of  hearsay?

I think Tekken4 and Virtua 4 look really nice. IMO DOA3 is better graphically but not by a whole lot. In fact I was expecting it to be a lot better.

BizioEE, you\'ve become a true gestapo graphics nazi, congratulations!

you know what else is remarkable mm  sit down and actually learn the moves of the game (or any fighting game for that matter) and you will easily wipe the floor with a person who is button mashing

Very true, sit down and learn the moves and you can destroy a button masher.

Originally posted by Heretic



I\'ve heard from several separate individuals, in their opinion the graphics of the DC never advanced beyond Soul Caliber. Any DC owners besides Bizio care to comment?

I believe Namco said they maxed out the DC...

I don\'t think the DC made any graphical leaps from its\' initial launch lineup.  Nothing to drop my jaw about anyway...

I take that back,  anyone play Test Drive LeMans?  5-6 Million polygons on a machine that supposedly maxed out at 3 million.  The game was beautiful and showed DC still had a little life left in it...


And guys...DoA3>VF4/Tekken Tag.  Get over it already...

And I love how you guys keep saying wait until SC2, Tekken 4.  When someone says "wait for" an Xbox game, the idea is beaten to death...

Rikku, if you\'re going to consistantly post the ironys of all the arguements on this board, then your usefulness here is moot.  We already have a number of people who do that and we dont need another.  Contribute something useful for a change, please.

As for the rest of this thread, the only lame comment I read was about VF4 being a button masher and DOA3 being great then VF4... You people must be buying the same stuff from the same seller.  In any case, this thread is a waste.  If a game is good, there\'s no point in debating how many jaggies it has.