Religious Discussion 101 (See page 7)

Perhaps there is no middle or end.  Perhaps it is always continuing, for all time.

And tell me, if something needs a beginning and an end to exist, how do you explain the circle?

To Clowd:

Yes, God inspired men to write down what God knew we needed to know. My point is just that God didn\'t create everything in 6 24 hour days.

Could there be a possiblity that the people who wrote the scriptures made a typo?  It happened with the description of Moses.  What I\'m saying is that man is fallible, he has faults.  I\'ll agree that Christians believe in a God who is without mistakes, but his followers have tripped many times over.
True, your quote doesn\'t mention that the day consists of 24 hours, but it doesn\'t say that it isn\'t 24 hours.  How can man years ago, translating the word of God, grasp the concept of a day that\'s not 24 hours when that\'s the only type of day that he could understand.  I mean, it was hard to grasp that the solar system is heliocentric and not geocentric back then.

Rya:If the holy spirit is an active force of God then wouldn\'t that mean that the holy spirit is a part of God? And since Jesus is of God, wouldn\'t that mean that Jesus is a part of God? Therefore creating the Trinity?
Clowd:We all came from God.

Ok, I can understand that Christians believe in the Holy Trinity.  I might have a hard time grasping the minute details of it, but I get it.  However, I\'m having a really hard time understanding why you don\'t believe in the Holy Trinity.  Can you please clarify?  

I am not God, I do not know if he will forgive them or not. It is not a place for any human to hand down judgement.

I don\'t expect you to play God.  I was asking for your opinion on the matter.  An opinion, in some cases, is a judgement.  Your quote:

Just because they say they have Christian faith doesn\'t mean they are Christian. Besides, TRUE Christians know that racism is wrong.

seems to already pass the opinion about the KKK.  And don\'t tell me that you\'re the one sole person on this planet who doesn\'t think that making a good first impression is a big deal.  

how do you explain the circle?

You gotta put the pencil on the paper at the beginning and when you lift your pencil off the paper at the end.  Unless you\'re cheating and you\'re using a rubber stamp!  

Rubber stamps rule

To IronFist:

Even if a religion doesn\'t believe in God, if they are teaching good principles, I believe their principles originally came from God.

I\'m having a hard time understanding this.  From what I understand about Christianity is that a Christian has accepted God into his heart and can hear God\'s will.  And a person who hasn\'t accepted God can\'t hear his will.  So how can a morally good person still know what God wants when that person can\'t hear him?

But I don\'t think I would like having to find a girlfriend over and over and over very much. Finding one just once is hard enough!

hehehehe That’s very true!!!  But when you find the one, and you’re asked if you’d do it all over, I bet you’d say that you would.  
Here’s another part of my theory on life: Those who abide by the laws of nature (live, love, be agreeable with society) will be rewarded with whatever afterlife they’d choose.  Christians would get heaven, evolutionists will cease to exist (unless they want something else), and reincarnationists (?) will reincarnate.  Criminals will get punished by either hell or reincarnate as a bug.  So everyone gets what they deserve.

I never understood why finding out if we came from monkeys or not was so important to so many people. That kind of stuff just isn\'t important to me. But to each his/her own I guess.  

You know…you are quite right!  It’s just monkeys!  They’re probably thinking, “Stupid humans!”  That’s probably why they’re chucking dookie at us at the zoo!  Mystery solved!!!  

For the Christian\'s out there who actually do believe in serving others, you have to take into consideration that we all have our problems.

This can also apply to nonbelievers.  Problems arise that take up time from finding God (or any other deity for that matter) or to find any spirituality at all.

In 2 months, I\'m going to live on my own back in Salt Lake City, Utah. Maybe I\'ll invite a homeless person to come and stay with me. He could be my cook.  

Sounds like a plan!  {off-topic}Good luck with the move.  Beware of movers, they can jip you of money.  Beware of U-Hauls, they have been known to break down while driving.  Both of these stories I saw on 20/20. {/off-topic}

Jesus Christ payed the price for both of those things (my church believes he payed for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, and payed for our death when he died on the cross.) Salvation is possible because of him.

I’m a little unclear about this.  Can you clarify please?  

it would be impossible for them to dwell inside of a person. That is one major thing the Holy Ghost does. It is able to to be with the worthy and guide them in everything they do.

Finally!  Someone who can explain the Holy Ghost into words!  Thank you ever so much!!  

God, and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies which look similar to ours.

Why is there a need for two physical beings and just one spiritual?  Why can\'t there be one physical and one spiritual?  Or two physical and two spiritual?

But it is known that prophets in the Bible have seen God, and have talked to God, so there must be a way to do so without dying.

So who was talking to the prophets?  God himself or the Holy Ghost?

Not at all. I would consider it looking your best so you don\'t scare people off.  The missionaries are not the ones who do the converting anyways, they only give the message. The Holy Ghost is the one who tells the people that what the missionaries are teaching is true.

I see!  Unfortunately, there are some missionaries who go about this the wrong way.  I understand that your church send out missionaries to spread the message.  But there are actually churches who send out kids to bring friends to the church, who aren\'t already Christian.  Then they show that friend how fun it is to be with a church and then sneak something by that friend (like a contract saying that they\'ll convert and having that friend sign it without letting him/her read the small print).  I saw this on 20/20.  Some Jewish kid signed that paper and didn\'t realize that he had agreed to convert.  He was a few weeks before his Bar Mitzvah (sp?) and he said that even after the situation between himself (and family) and that church have been clarified, he didn\'t feel right taking part of his own Bar Mitzvah.  (I\'m sorry I went a little off topic there.  It\'s just that after watching that segment, I was just stunned by what missionaries would do just to get converts.)

Now that would make a great sig!  Ryu would probably ban me if I put it as my own sig though. lol.

Or maybe I should put that as my avatar!  hehehe.    And you can only imagine what I pulled out of there!   j/k!

Originally posted by shockwaves
Why did they have to come from somewhere?  Couldn\'t they have just always been there?  That\'s no less realistic than saying that God has always been there.

That was exactly my point.  Luckee asked where God came from (a question that obviously none of us can answer).  So I dicided to use the same logic and ask where the first bit of matter came from.  If matter has always existed, then you can\'t throw out the idea that God always existed as well.  If matter had a beginning, then you run into the problem of figuring out how it was created.  If God had a beginning, we run into the same problem.

Like Clowd said, we can not comprehend the idea of infinity -- no beginning, no end.  And we don\'t even know if we need to, because we don\'t know if things really are infinite, or if they were just started up somewhere in time.  Like Ryu said, it\'s best that we don\'t even worry about such things.

It\'s a lot easier to think of infinity if you think of it in relation to something you can understand.  For example, a circle.  Take a random point on the circle, and trace around the circle forwards.  Will you ever get to the end?  Then trace around it the other way.  Will you ever find a beginning?  Perhaps that\'s all that time is: a cycle.  Perhaps when the world is destroyed, and the the universe expands and then collapses in on itself, or whatever it does, everything will start again, until eventually we reach the same point on this circular pattern that we are in now.

[Titan]

Originally posted by shockwaves
Perhaps there is no middle or end.  Perhaps it is always continuing, for all time.

And tell me, if something needs a beginning and an end to exist, how do you explain the circle?

I never thought of it like that. I mean, time is forever but where did time start? Matter can go so far back that no human will ever figure it out. Oh and for a circle, O<-----That point is beginning and end, is it not? (seriously though, I dont\' know )

where did time start

Time didn\'t start until humans measured it.  We created the concept of seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc.  Animals don\'t need to know what a second is.  We probably don\'t need it either.  Exactly what is time, when you really think about it.

A unit used to measure the change in things, basically.

Rya:

I\'m having a hard time understanding this. From what I understand about Christianity is that a Christian has accepted God into his heart and can hear God\'s will. And a person who hasn\'t accepted God can\'t hear his will. So how can a morally good person still know what God wants when that person can\'t hear him?

I was just saying that because God has been teaching his children (through prophets) good from evil ever since the beginning of the world, that even the churches that don\'t believe in God are teaching principles that originally came from God.  To answer your question, that person probably already knows what God wants from him (to live a worthy life).  If God wants more of him though, then God would need to contact him.  God would probably do one of three things, 1. Talk to the person himself (this is the least likely thing). 2. Have the Holy Ghost kind of give the person a push in the right direction until the person sees what God needs him to do.  3.  Have a person who does believe in God go talk to the person who doesn\'t.  The person who does believe in God would probably be being led by the Holy Ghost in order to find the person who doesn\'t believe in God and talk to him.

This can also apply to nonbelievers. Problems arise that take up time from finding God (or any other deity for that matter) or to find any spirituality at all.

I have found that the more often I spend serving others and trying to get closer to God, the easier it becomes to find time to do so.  Even with the many things we have to do every day, we can still find time to get more spiritually "in tune".

Sounds like a plan! {off-topic}Good luck with the move. Beware of movers, they can jip you of money. Beware of U-Hauls, they have been known to break down while driving. Both of these stories I saw on 20/20. {/off-topic}

All I\'m bringing with me is some clothes, my computer, and a blanket or two.  I don\'t think I\'ll need a mover, although I still don\'t know how I\'m getting my computer to Utah (because I\'m probably going to fly there).

IronFist said: Jesus Christ payed the price for both of those things (my church believes he payed for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, and payed for our death when he died on the cross.) Salvation is possible because of him.

Rya said: I’m a little unclear about this. Can you clarify please?

I\'ll try to.  As I have said before, one reason we were all sent down to this world is to get a physical body.  There are two things wrong with the physical body though.  1. It can be tempted and can give in to temptation.  In other words, we sin.  2.  At the end of our life, it dies.  With these two problems we can not make it to heaven.  Because God is all-knowing, he knew this would prevent his children from making it back to him.  So he sent his first born spirit child (Jesus Christ) down to this world to pay the price for our sins and our death.  In order for Christ to be able to pay for all of our sins and our death, he had to live a perfect life.  So his whole life he withstood temptation, and in the end was worthy to take upon himself the sins of the world.  

At the age of 33, the night before he was crucified, he went into the Garden of Gethsemane with his apostles.  He told his apostles to wait for him while he went deeper into the garden and prayed to his father.  This was the event that Jesus\' whole life was building up to.  This was the event that we all were depending upon.  At this time, Jesus took upon himself the sins and sorrows of every man and woman who had ever been, or would ever be born.  The burden was so great, the sins were so numerous, the pain was so painful, that Jesus Christ bled from every poor of his body.  He prayed to his father, "And he said, Abba [translated as "daddy"], Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."  It hurt so bad, and he was so scared of the pain, that he was having second thoughts about taking upon himself the sins of the world.  Fortunately for the salvation of us all, he went through with it.

Following this, he was captured, horribly beaten, and then crucified.  Three days later, he was resurrected.  This event is what was needed in order for us to overcome our physical death.  Because of this, we will all be resurrected after we die.  We will all have physical, immortal bodies after we die.

I don\'t know if that helped you understand any better, so if you still don\'t understand, ask about a specific thing that you want me to explain.  I will do my best to do so.

Why is there a need for two physical beings and just one spiritual? Why can\'t there be one physical and one spiritual? Or two physical and two spiritual?

• Why God the Father has a physical body:  Our church believes that God used to be in the same situation we are in right now.  He used to be a human, and used to have his own God (his father).  We believe that the righteous people on this world who get baptized into Christ\'s church AND get married in the temple will also have this opportunity.

Remember how we believe in the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial kingdoms of heaven?  Well in the highest kingdom, the Celestial kingdom, there are three different "degrees".  The lowest degree is for the people who were baptized into Christ\'s church, and lived a worthy life, but never got married in the temple.  They become angels -- messengers for God.  The middle degree\'s purpose is still unknown to us at this time.  The highest degree is where the people who were baptized into Christ\'s church, who lived a worthy life, and who got married in a temple "for time and all eternity".  These people, husband and wife, are able to progress from there and eventually become Gods.  Many churches think this belief is blasphemous; that it makes God look weak or makes us mortals look stronger than we are.  To them I say, if you had children, wouldn\'t you want them to have everything that you have?

So God has a physical body because a long time ago he was born on a planet just like we have been.  Before he was born, he was just a spirit just like we were.

• Why Jesus Christ has a physical body:  Before Jesus was born on this earth, he was also a spirit just like we were.  He is our spirit brother.  He has a physical body now because he was born on this world.
• Why the Holy Ghost is a spirit:  I have told you what the Holy Ghost\'s purpose was.  That is why it is needed for him to be a spirit.

So that is why things are the way they are.  Those three beings make up the "Godhead."  I also want to mention that there is also a Heavenly Mother.  She also has a physical body.  We don\'t talk about her much though out of respect (God doesn\'t mention her in the Bible because he doesn\'t want people to take her name in vain like they do with his.)

So who was talking to the prophets? God himself or the Holy Ghost?

I\'m sure the prophets were being guided by the Holy Ghost in just about everything they did, but there were times when the prophets actually did talk to God.  Like when God talked to Moses when giving him the 10 commandments.

He was a few weeks before his Bar Mitzvah (sp?) and he said that even after the situation between himself (and family) and that church have been clarified, he didn\'t feel right taking part of his own Bar Mitzvah. (I\'m sorry I went a little off topic there. It\'s just that after watching that segment, I was just stunned by what missionaries would do just to get converts.)

I know this is kind of off topic, but what is this "Bar Mitzvah" you speak of?  I\'ve never heard of it (I don\'t know too much about the Jewish faith).

Originally posted by shockwaves
It\'s a lot easier to think of infinity if you think of it in relation to something you can understand.  For example, a circle.  Take a random point on the circle, and trace around the circle forwards.  Will you ever get to the end?  Then trace around it the other way.  Will you ever find a beginning?  Perhaps that\'s all that time is: a cycle.  Perhaps when the world is destroyed, and the the universe expands and then collapses in on itself, or whatever it does, everything will start again, until eventually we reach the same point on this circular pattern that we are in now.

[sarcasm]Oh yeah, that\'s much easier! *head explodes*

I can understand the circle analogy, but I just can\'t comprehend infinity with respects to the universe.

Originally posted by shockwaves
A unit used to measure the change in things, basically.

Define the "things" that are "changing."

To answer your question, that person probably already knows what God wants from him (to live a worthy life).

Still a tad bit confusing, but it\'s ok.  There are some things that some of us never get.  Like how males always ponder why females are hard to understand (we\'re not really).

Even with the many things we have to do every day, we can still find time to get more spiritually "in tune".

True, all we need to do it make time.  But even when we do find that time to do something, it\'s usually taken up in taking care of finances, fixing the roof.  People can\'t even find time to exercise or eat right anymore.

All I\'m bringing with me is some clothes, my computer, and a blanket or two.  I don\'t think I\'ll need a mover, although I still don\'t know how I\'m getting my computer to Utah (because I\'m probably going to fly there).

Toilet paper, towels, a pan, a kettle, a pot, utensils, a cup, a plate, a bowl, an umbrella...list can go on!  PM me if you need a complete list.  I just finished helping my sister move to Southern California a few months ago.  

God used to be in the same situation we are in right now. He used to be a human, and used to have his own God (his father).

If God had a God of his own, shouldn\'t we be reverring that higher God because it is higher than the God who\'s being worshipped now?  And if God was born human once, then can\'t that mean that one of the humans today be changed into a God himself or herself?

Heavenly Mother

Speaking of women, why is it that women are portrayed so vilely in the Bible?  Why hasn\'t the church tried to correct this image of women?  I thought that as the children of God, we are all equal in his eyes.  Eve was emphasized as the cause of human damnation, why isn\'t Adam blamed just as badly?

God doesn\'t mention her in the Bible because he doesn\'t want people to take her name in vain like they do with his.

Why doesn\'t God just smite the ones who do use his name in vain.  Like zap him on the spot?  The person who does use it in vain is going against one of the 10 commandments.

I know this is kind of off topic, but what is this "Bar Mitzvah" you speak of?

It\'s not really off topic when it\'s on the subject of religion.  You wanted this thread to be a discussion on religion and Judaism is a religion.  
A Bar Mitzvah, if I\'m spelling it correctly, is the Jewish celebration of a boy\'s coming of age.  It usually occurs around their 16th birthday.  The boy studies and and learns to understand the Torah, the Jewish Holy Scripture (which I\'m sure you know is the Old Testament).  During the Bar Mitzvah, family and friends gather to hear the boy read the Torah.  After successfully doing so, he is prolaimed a man and from that day forth he is to be treated as an adult.  Then the family and friends have a big party celebrating.  The girl\'s version is called a Bah Mitzvah (sp?).  I\'m not sure what happens for girls because I heard that girls aren\'t allowed to read the Torah.  (NOTE: for those who are Jewish on the forums, please feel free to correct me.  I\'m not sure if I relayed this information correctly.  What I wrote here is what I\'ve been told.)
You know, I\'m surprised that many Christians don\'t know much about Judaism (please, don\'t take this as a bash on you IronFist).  It\'s where Christianity originated from.  Wasn\'t Jesus himself Hebrew before he was baptized?  The Bible mentions a lot about the Hebrews in the OT.  I think Judaism is also where Islam originated from too.

Originally posted by Rya


Define the "things" that are "changing."

Mainly the change in the physical properties or the motion of any physical objects that can be seen and measured by those doing the measuring (humans).

Originally posted by IronFist
[sarcasm]Oh yeah, that\'s much easier! *head explodes*  

I can understand the circle analogy, but I just can\'t comprehend infinity with respects to the universe.

Well, some scientists do believe that the universe is currently expanding outwards from a point, and once it expands enough, it will collapse back in on itself.  After this, it will expand and collapse again and again.  Perhaps each cycle of expanding and contracting is like the cycle around a circle.  Perhaps after a certain amount of time, after the universe had expanded and contracted, and then begun expanding again, it will reach the point it\'s in now.  We will once again have people just like those present right now.  Someone exactly like me will be typing a message just like this, and someone like you reading it.  The cycle of time will continue along its circular path just as it had been doing in previous cycles, with everything happening in time the exact same way, until the universe once again expands and contracts fully, and the cycle starts over.

The problem is that people think of time in linear terms, and we are used to things like that having a starting point and an ending point.  You don\'t have to think about it that way.  Time, most likely, is a relative thing.  

I\'m not saying this is the way that things are, before someone jumps at me with reasons why the universe couldn\'t be behaving that way, but I think it is a possibility, based on the relatively small amount of knowledge I have on the subject, and it serves my point.