September NPD

This coming from someone who rarely makes a point, an attempt at rational discussion, and always dodges the question.

and this coming from someone who conveniently changes any subject when it fits him best

Originally posted by mm
and this coming from someone who conveniently changes any subject when it fits him best

Like what you\'re doing right there

:rolleyes:

Why do I get the impression that Nicon and Ginko are argueing about the same thing they are agreeing with?

why do i get the feeling that bozco and ginko are the  same person?

I predict you ll say that bozco unicron and ginko are the same person later

Originally posted by Lord Nicon
Yes unclear as to you making momentum your main argument. I said it was mentioned. One statement doesnt solidify the point of both past and present arguments. Jesus. The point is taken lets move on now.

Actually, I mentioned it twice.  Once on the first page then again a few posts back.  Check it out if you want...

The ps2 had a shortage and from what many said a semi poor set of launch games besides a few pretty good ones. Nothing that was supposed to be a killer app like the rumored GT2000, etc. The graphics were debatably better or worse than the already released dreamcast, and dev complaints as well as rumors of ps2\'s in superiority due to bottlenecks and 4megs of vram was always a common issue. Of course the only thing it really had going for it besides a few good games was its hype.

You\'re forgetting to mention that the PS2 would have the luxury of having the most successful console in history as its\' older brother.  I believe the Playstation had well over 60 million units sold when the PS2 released.  The large, casual consumer base, that Sony basically created, will move over.  Sony made it cool to be a gamer, that\'s why their numbers sky rocketed during the Playstation years and why the PS2 was a success long before it was due.

The PS2 launch was dismal however Sony made another incredibly smart move.  The PS2 had DVD support.  Japan\'s DVD players were still very pricey so the fact that PS2 could play dvd\'s as well as play games put it on the fast track to success and buried the Dreamcast in Japan.  Do I need to remind you that The Matrix was the number one seller for PS2 in Japan?   The wait for games might have ticked off a few gamers but in the end Playstation 2 delivered.  The mass market doesn\'t remember or doesn\'t care they had to wait a while because it paid off,  Sony brought them the games again.  

Dreamcast was DOA.  It came out at an awkward time and would eventually be overtaken by the soon to be released consoles from Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.  The third party support was okay, still very cautious, and those that did develop for it jumped ship as soon as PS2 was released.  Sega made way too many mistakes and it cost them their hardware business.  That we can all agree on.

The hype on dolphin and xbox were nothing to laugh about with all the tech demos and rumored specs that were so much greater than the ps2\'s. Not to mention the xbox could do everything the ps2 could plus more except for backwards compatibility. The numbers far outclassed that of ps2\'s. Not to mention th fact that its pc architecture allowed plenty of pc devs to jump on the boat.

Not really a problem for Sony.  By the time MS and Nintendo would release their consoles Sony already had around 30 millions PS2\'s and had just begun to hit its\' stride with games.  Xbox and GC launch had some good games but they were going up against Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy X, Jak & Daxter, etc.

The Xbox numbers might have outclassed PS2 but that\'s not enough.  MS had to prove they could sell games before they would get more developer support.

Nintendo was up against their "kiddy" image, the format they choose, and a lack of developer support from 3rd parties.  

The 64, had all sorts of hype going for it as well, not to mention that all of its previous consoles were highly regarded. 2 generations to be exact, when this time around, sony had one console under its belt (i admit a very good one but still one gen). Not only did the system boast double the power supposedly, it also had zero load times etc (and by this time everybody was far too aware of this issue with cd rom systems). The casual gaming population made little fuss about the pricing and the fact that the games were cartridges because there were so many pluses and damaging one was so much more difficult.

Hype can dwindle quite fast after the consumer realizes what they\'re getting.  The N64 had record sales but quickly went down hill due to a lack of games.  The casual gamer might not have made a big fuss about cartridge prices, even though PS games were cheaper, but developers sure spoke up and reacted.  The N64 didn\'t have the 3rd party support because of the issues I mentioned earlier.  The Playstation had many choices over what the N64 could offer and the Saturn was getting ready to lie down in its\' grave.  

Often we forget how huge of a percentage the casual gaming population makes. We\'ve seen some crappy games go up on the top 20 sales list and this is all due to misinformed casual gamers. All this tech and specifics bull could barely matter any less to these people.

And those people make up a very large part of the Playstation audience.  They might get persuaded by hype but in the end they\'ll always go where the games are.  Sony\'s where it\'s at and until someone convinces them otherwise they aren\'t moving.

Sure ms didnt have the same set of advantages, etc. but the same advantages arent always needed. I cant remember a single launch game that looked anywhere below the level of ps2\'s middle tier games. There were many selling factors so dont make it out to be a case where xbox was going to sell this way from the get go. Lets not even talk about ps2\'s not so wonderful e3 outing a couple years back. Microsoft had plenty of opportunities to make for better sales.

Average joe doesn\'t know what E3 is.  Again, Playstation and PS2 are where the games are and joe won\'t forget that.  Xbox had alot of hype going in but the lack of software is what kept it from selling more than it could have.  PS2 was releasing the big guns in 2001 and hasn\'t stopped since.  

Games sell hardware, you can\'t dispute that.  That\'s why the Playstation sold and that\'s why the PS2 dominates.  Now we are seeing 3rd parties taking a chance on Xbox and it\'s paying off so MS is winning over developers and consumers.  However, the PS2 isn\'t losing anything.

And they are gaining some foothold in the Japanese market. Of course Japan was never the main money maker. We were talking about american numbers previously and despite Japanese sales, the american numbers of the ps2 etc. are still outclassing. Yes there are reasons behind this, but you make it out to seem like this is better than microsoft could have ever done and under these circumstances its doing so incredibly well.

Last I checked Xbox had sold 1.4 million in Japan...I\'d say it\'s dead and MS would be stupid to keep pursuing them.  What has changed since the 32-bit generation is the influence of Japanese developers.  They no longer can claim to be the major factors in the outcome of a console, I think American developers have taken that spot with some of the best selling games on the planet.  I think MS has made some improvements in Japanese developer support because they can make money, however I don\'t see the Japanese consumers buying into the MS brand anytime soon...their market indicates they are loyal to themselves.  

I beg to differ.

Then again, opinions are opinions and there are really no flat facts that disprove one argument or the other. This is just how i see things.

Differ you have but I think your arguement is full of misconceptions and inaccuracies.  You\'ve gone as far to mention the average gamer\'s role in the success of a console then go on to mention things like E3 and tech specs that should have sold GC and Xbox.  They don\'t play a role to joe gamer, and they definitely don\'t determine the success of a console.  

In the end, only the games sell hardware.  Can we agree on that?

Originally posted by mm
and this coming from someone who conveniently changes any subject when it fits him best

I haven\'t changed the subject, if anything I always make an attempt to answer your wild misconceptions which lead us off track.

In the end, only the games sell hardware. Can we agree on that?

no, hype sells
look at xbox

Originally posted by mm
no, hype sells
look at xbox

Hype gets you buyers in the beginning but it doesn\'t hold ground for long.  Case in point is the N64.  Lots of hype even record breaking sales but a lack of software due to less 3rd party support kept it from selling more.

EDIT: We both know that Halo sold Xbox.

The third party support has grown and so does the consumer base.  Like I said, games sell hardware.

Originally posted by mm
why do i get the feeling that bozco and ginko are the  same person?

NAH.. its just that they are joined at the HIP or was that the rectum ?

Games aren\'t selling the Xbox, in my opinion. I\'d say the image does. It\'s cool and it\'s becoming mainstream. PS2 is becoming old and people are buying the newer, bigger, console.

It\'s an interesting trend heading into the next generation of hardware. With three companies going head-to-head for round two, it\'s going to get pretty messy.

Will Rockstar\'s importance fade as GTA gets older? Will Xbox 2 continue its momentum with a headstart on the PS3? And will Nintendo ever stop outselling third parties enough to make its system a contendor for number one?

-Dan

Originally posted by Eiksirf
Games aren\'t selling the Xbox, in my opinion. I\'d say the image does. It\'s cool and it\'s becoming mainstream. PS2 is becoming old and people are buying the newer, bigger, console.

I\'d attribute the Xbox going mainstream due to most of any game you can find on PS2 you can now find on Xbox.  

It\'s an interesting trend heading into the next generation of hardware. With three companies going head-to-head for round two, it\'s going to get pretty messy.

I\'ve heard two different stances on next gen.  One is that there will hardly be any differences in performance and any success will be due to who has the better games, much like this gen.  Second is that the hardware will be largely different from each other and we\'ll see a clear distinction between what\'s offered for each console.  /shrugs

Well Ginko, we really cant argue on what the casual gamer knows and doesnt know and i guess thats a dead point for our arguments, as we disagree but cant verify too much. Unless there is some crazy source that i dont know of that proves one of our points.

Differ you have but I think your argument is full of misconceptions and inaccuracies. You\'ve gone as far to mention the average gamer\'s role in the success of a console then go on to mention things like E3 and tech specs that should have sold GC and Xbox.

You could say that but rumors and real writeups on the true power of these systems are in semi different leagues. I know plenty of casual gamers that have talked about specs etc. Casual gamers as we should remember dont just buy things without any knowledge whatsoever.

Often specs or estimated specs are posted on the net or in magazines which can easily be misconstrued and/or passed down by word of mouth. I cant begin to recall how many xbox and ps2 fanboys there were before xbox even came out (this is inbetween the launch of ps2 and before the launch of xbox. Even after). Lets not forget the crowd that microsoft pulls from pc gamers etc. Those that arent on the japanese superiority boat. So when i mention casual gamers and specs you cant assume that only hardcore or tech heads hear of it (in one way or another)

In the end, only the games sell hardware. Can we agree on that?

This we can agree on, but one\'s opinion on those games is another variable that we cant fully say or debate (though it does effect this argument). So like i said we can go about this all day and despite our arguments its obvious that we have differences in opinion. Opinions that cant be proven unless you have some magical source that proves such things.

Like i said before. Its a pretty silly debate. Interesting i suppose but silly. And to think all this started over a couple of numbers etc.

Meh.

Originally posted by Lord Nicon
Well Ginko, we really cant argue on what the casual gamer knows and doesnt know and i guess thats a dead point for our arguments, as we disagree but cant verify too much. Unless there is some crazy source that i dont know of that proves one of our points.

You could say that but rumors and real writeups on the true power of these systems are in semi different leagues. I know plenty of casual gamers that have talked about specs etc. Casual gamers as we should remember dont just buy things without any knowledge whatsoever.

Often specs or estimated specs are posted on the net or in magazines which can easily be misconstrued and/or passed down by word of mouth. I cant begin to recall how many xbox and ps2 fanboys there were before xbox even came out (this is inbetween the launch of ps2 and before the launch of xbox. Even after). Lets not forget the crowd that microsoft pulls from pc gamers etc. Those that arent on the japanese superiority boat. So when i mention casual gamers and specs you cant assume that only hardcore or tech heads hear of it (in one way or another)

I didn\'t suggest they are completely ignorant with their purchases.  What I\'m saying is that they don\'t buy games based on tech specs or an e3 performance, those don\'t count when it comes to system longevity.  Only the games will and 70+ million PS2\'s says Sony knows that and in the end tech specs, e3 performances, shortages, etc. don\'t matter.

If you don\'t agree then how would you explain that the N64 reached less than a third of the Playstation userbase for reason other than it didn\'t have the selection of games the competition had?  Or why PS2 managed to sell 4-5 times as much as the competition?

They do count if you consider the hype they generate. The positive press which turns into good impressions which turns into word of mouth.

If no one ever hears of a game, no one will buy it.  But you\'re right in the cases of those good games which are great but don\'t end up selling well.  Hopefully Prince of Persia 2 will make back some of the money the first one missed out on.

-Dan