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Author Topic: California School Bans Declaration of Independence  (Read 4201 times)

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2004, 05:53:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ryu
You don\'t know that.  In fact, if all private practices were folded into the government umbrella, there\'d be plenty of doctors at large hospitals to handle the patient volume.  There\'s lots of details to the system that I propose, but you assume these huge problems would suddenly crop up once it goes to government funded simply because you are applying them to the current sh*t system when that\'s not the case at all.



Wrong.  With my system, doctor\'s educations would be government funded and open to anyone who can participate.  The acceptance policy would be quite a bit more strict though at the medical schools for that type of funding, but it would all fall under the governments umbrella just like military or FBI training.



Who said it was free?  I said it\'d be handled in taxes.



WRONG AGAIN!  First of all, people are not given health care for a NUMBER of reasons by employers in many different feilds.  Secondly, if you work 3 jobs and each is part time, you know how much healthcare you are given?  0.  None.  No one covers part times workers for health care no matter how many jobs you work to make a living.  I don\'t know what country you come from, but 50% of Americans do NOT have healthcare and more then half of those people ARE working.



Then that money you pay, which would be less in the long term, would be folded into a surplus at the end of the month to be totaled at the end of the year to go towards some new program that you yourself can vote on.  That way your money isn\'t just mystically dissapearing, but it\'s being put towards something that could benefit you some day if you need it.


Look at Canada\'s health care and then make it ten times worse if you apply national health care to the US.  Canada doesn\'t have nearly the population we do and most Canadians will tell you it sucks.

You rid the US of private practices you would have a revolt on your hands... see this is what you don\'t get Ryu... we are not a socialist country and what you are proposing is ridiculous.  Private practices under goverment control? :laughing: Never will happen.  If you want that move to Canada and enjoy their crappy healthcare.

Taxes would take care of national health insurance???  First I don\'t think its possible to raise enough by taxes alone.  Secondly,  I am sorry, but I don\'t want to pay high taxes for some "part time" lazy ass who won\'t go find a real job and get his own insurance.  The government will also fund MD\'s education?  This all reaks of socialism and this is exactly what this country doesn\'t need.  If you don\'t like the form of government move elsewhere - we live in a capitalist country that rewards work.  If you want to have a crappy job, be taxed to death and have the government control certain professions and industries then this isn\'t the country for you.  In simple terms I don\'t want the government controlling my healthcare.

The last thing you suggest - private health care "savings plans"... that is what Bush has been suggesting for some time.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2004, 05:57:09 PM by GigaShadow »
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Offline videoholic

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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2004, 07:35:18 PM »
GIga, you took it right from me.  Just look at Canada and see how well putting the government in charge of health care works.  That country is all Fu*ked up.
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Offline Bjorn


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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2004, 03:12:45 AM »
giga: why the strong hate for some solidarity?

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2004, 07:33:17 AM »
What do you mean Bjorn?
\"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.\"  - Churchill
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Offline Eiksirf
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2004, 08:12:18 AM »
I know someone who goes to school and works three part-time jobs.

I wouldn\'t call her a lazy ass Giga.

For a while I worked two jobs and didn\'t get any healthcare. I would get up for work at 7 or so and usually get home around 12:30, 1am. Saying I was a lazy ass is insulting.

What if there was a government-funded health care option that stood as an alternative to private practice?

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Offline Deadly Hamster
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2004, 08:51:06 AM »
Quote
I did say that our laws were not derrived from the bible, but that does not mean that our founding fathers were not religious and that this country was not founded on the principles of the Christian faith. As I said before: Freedom of religion, not freedom from relgion.


Freedom of religion also includes the freedom NOT to be religious, Then the government should not openly choose Religion or Not-Religion.  

Our laws are based on general religious morals, taken from mostly christian ideas. Althought they were not taken from the bible, religion just has had such a large influence on man kind throughout history, the morals of religion have become basically everyones morals and that\'s why they are written into law.

And Jefferson, Adams, Franklin all openly said they doubted the christian faith.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2004, 10:02:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Freedom of religion also includes the freedom NOT to be religious, Then the government should not openly choose Religion or Not-Religion.  

Our laws are based on general religious morals, taken from mostly christian ideas. Althought they were not taken from the bible, religion just has had such a large influence on man kind throughout history, the morals of religion have become basically everyones morals and that\'s why they are written into law.

And Jefferson, Adams, Franklin all openly said they doubted the christian faith.


What morals of religion is our government forcing on us?  Also post links to where Jefferson, Adams and Franklin openly doubted Christianity.  

The only thing Jefferson opposed was the corruption of Christianity.  Something I also oppose - which is why I don\'t attend church and really don\'t subscribe to organized religion.  However, Jefferson did not oppose the precepts of Jesus and more importantly Jefferson considered himself a Christian.

Franklin was a Deist, but later in his life reverted back to Christianity.

Quote


When you study the documents of the Revolutionary period, a precise picture comes into focus. Here it is:

Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.

The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.

The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.

Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.

Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...


The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.

They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.



What is the most disturbing is the fact that today, the mere mention of the word God is treated like bad word here in the US.  This is not what our founding fathers intended.  How can one such as myself be not religous in the least have no problem with Christianity or God?  Easily - it is called tolerance and respect for someone who has faith.  As long as I am not forced to worship at the governments direction I don\'t see what the problem is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2004, 10:24:08 AM by GigaShadow »
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Offline Ryu
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2004, 12:28:37 PM »
Quote
What is the most disturbing is the fact that today, the mere mention of the word God is treated like bad word here in the US.


No.  What\'s most disturbing is that people are willing to follow a book instead of their own common sense.  I think that\'s what bothers me the most about all of this and the utter stubborness from people who take that stance making themselves unwilling to try and see things from the other side of the fence.

Quote
How can one such as myself be not religous in the least have no problem with Christianity or God? Easily - it is called tolerance and respect for someone who has faith.


I do this all the time as well and it\'s not difficult in the slightest, but that\'s not the problem most people have with religious sects.  Everytime groups of people want to progress forward with lifstyle changes and new ways of doing things or new technologies, there\'s always a bible thumper proclaiming we\'re all going to hell or we\'re all bringing about armageddon.  I don\'t tolerate that kind of crap.  I don\'t have tolerance for people at my school passing out fliers claiming I should back Bush because God is on his side.  I don\'t like that abortion clinics are blown apart or firebombed because people think the woman\'s right to choose is the wrong thing to have.  None of my friends who are religious do these things, but there are plenty of other extremists out there who do. That\'s what makes tolerance for all religious worshippers difficult.

Quote
I know someone who goes to school and works three part-time jobs.

I wouldn\'t call her a lazy ass Giga.

For a while I worked two jobs and didn\'t get any healthcare. I would get up for work at 7 or so and usually get home around 12:30, 1am. Saying I was a lazy ass is insulting.

What if there was a government-funded health care option that stood as an alternative to private practice?

-Dan


Yup.  My mom did the same thing for me and my brother when we were much younger.  I found Giga\'s post in reference to that equally insulting and moronic.

Quote
You rid the US of private practices you would have a revolt on your hands... see this is what you don\'t get Ryu... we are not a socialist country and what you are proposing is ridiculous. Private practices under goverment control?  Never will happen. If you want that move to Canada and enjoy their crappy healthcare.


I\'m saying that we could implement a system that\'s different, I said it many times, and yet you keep naming examples of countries with smaller populations where it doesn\'t work all too well, but know this -- with every example you give, each country is considered to be a FAR better place to live then the US.  Why do you think that is?  Why is the best places to live in the world in Europe and not in the US?  If our system was so great and wonderful, you\'d think people would be flocking to us, but all we get are the people who don\'t have a choice one way or the other.

And lastly, this whole "you don\'t like it, get out" stance is total bullshit on your part, Giga.  This is why so MANY people hate Bush because he acts in that same pig headed moronic little bubble that our way is the best way no matter how much trouble and crap it causes.  It\'s the unwillingness to even consider the prospect of something better or something different that makes everything so screwed up in this world.  The unwillingness to accept that your way of thinking could be wrong or that it can\'t be changed.  I\'m not going to talk about my ideas anymore because I present them and you just call it socialist and that\'s that.  You don\'t even consider if it could work, you don\'t even care.  It\'s your way or the high way so screw it.  If that\'s the kind of tolerance you were talking about in your post up there, then I don\'t want any part of it.
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Offline Living-In-Clip

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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2004, 12:51:49 PM »
If it helps, I find all Giga\'s post moronic and insulting.
;)

I tend to agree with Ryu, I think a big problem with this country is the fact it doesn\'t want to change at all. It doesn\'t want to look at other countries and take hints. Instead, we are stuck in our own rut. I am not saying Canada\'s healthcare is great, but there is better options than our current one. The same applies with the nonsense "war on drugs". I don\'t do drugs and never have really, but I see no reason for the goverment to tell people that they can\'t smoke pot. I could keep goin\', but nevermind.

Offline SwifDi
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2004, 03:39:56 PM »
As quirky as California may be sometimes...

... they do grow some quality female ass there.

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2004, 04:00:01 PM »
Ryu,

First you say follow common sense instead of a book... gee not a bit condecending are we?  After all you are smarter than someone who does have faith aren\'t you?  :rolleyes: How many abortion clinics are blown up yearly?  I don\'t recall hearing about one this past year.  Where are all these extremists you are referring to?  

Government funded healthcare... who is going to pay?  Certainly not Mr. Minimum Wage.  Those of you who advocate "National Healthcare" have no idea of the cost involved to insure everyone.  It will be professionals like myself who will carry the load.  I find it insulting that you would have no problem with the middle class paying the brunt of this for some slacker who lives at home in his mother\'s basement or some drugged out crack head who doesn\'t want to work or only work part time.  

As for people flocking here... the last time I checked we have people from Central and South America streaming across our borders and we also have a high influx of other immigrants from around the world.  Canada has better living conditions than the US?  I know many Canadians that live here that would strongly disagree with you.  Since when was Europe the best place to live?  If it all butterflies and rainbows over there why isn\'t there a mass exodus from the US?  Why is Europe\'s population on a whole shrinking if everything is so much better over there?

Your ideas are utopian and unfortunately unrealistic for the United States.  I deal with facts not fantasy.  Sure I would love to have free health care for everyone, but the sad fact is we as a country can not afford it.  I was also speaking metaphorically about "move to Canada".  It was meant as a "see how their government works and you will be begging to come back here..."
\"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.\"  - Churchill
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Offline Ginko
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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2004, 08:29:26 PM »
I have a question, why is it that the United States has one of the highest crime rates in the world?  I\'ve always wondered that and have never been able to find an answer.  Is it something in the water?  

Also, Giga, here\'s a report for 2004 on best places to live.  U.S. is eighth.  >>>Link<<<

Here\'s the best part...

Quote
The beauty of globalization is that every corner of the world can learn from the others. A little less ideology, and a little more openness to the ideas adopted by the Nordic states, would do us all a world of good.


The U.S. is arrogant, I doubt they pay any mind to these kinds of statistics and unfortunately we all have to pay for it.  Yes, I know there are worse places to live, what interest me are the better.

As for the rest of this thread.  I don\'t get why the DOI was banned from a school, it\'s a piece of history in its entirety.  meh, as long as religion isn\'t taught in school I\'m cool with it.  

Quote
First you say follow common sense instead of a book... gee not a bit condecending are we? After all you are smarter than someone who does have faith aren\'t you?  How many abortion clinics are blown up yearly? I don\'t recall hearing about one this past year. Where are all these extremists you are referring to?


You\'d be silly not to acknowledge the fact that there are religious extremists, they range anywhere from a person telling you you\'re going to hell because [insert anything here] to the people commiting acts in the name of [insert any god here].
« Last Edit: November 28, 2004, 08:54:21 PM by Ginko »

Offline SirMystiq

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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2004, 11:21:32 PM »
Ryu is king.


Where are all of the religious extremist?

In the Government. The Bush Admin. isn\'t trying to slap their "Christian values" in our face? BULLSHIT

C\'mon Bush is getting pulled by the extreme left so hard his arm might come off. Who do you think got all of the support from those evangelist who made their people vote for him? Bush right now is there because his "Christian" values rose him above the sinful pro-abortion candidate.

Why is he sinful? Go to any church, go to any religious forums, ask any religious person why they aren\'t voting for Kerry and you would be surprised how many people can\'t look past freedom of choice.

The extreme right has all the cards now. You might like to think that the Government is full of wise and respectful men right now but you\'re lying to yourself if you think that these religious activist aren\'t taking Bush\'s win as a monument for Christianity. Ask any religious Christian right now. Bush is a symbol for the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, the ban on homosexual marriage and the pushing of the "creation" bullshit on our textbooks. And Bush has to keep his conservative base happy and I don\'t doubt he will.

Schools are FINE. Just because the founding fathers used Christian morals in order to keep virtue on our society doesn\'t make this country founded by Christianity. I really don\'t see the bitching about the school system.

Is some of it crap?
Hell yeah. If you aren\'t a good achieving school then say bye bye to funds. B/c under No Child Left Behind you have to continously take stupid test in order to prove that you deserve an education.

What is so awful about the school system compared to back in the day Giga?

That kids of illegal immigrants are getting an education out of your tax money!!!???


I\'ve never had health insurance other than Medicaid. My dad has worked at many places but never had enough to pay 452 dollars a month for health insurance. In fact my neighbors didn\'t either and they were legal!

Welcome to America. The land that used to be equality. The land that used to have opportunities without having some semi-racist moron bitching about it. The land that everybody once shared. The land that recently is becoming more and more full of materialistic, arrogant "Americans" who would rather step on the hand of the poor than put a dollar in it.

Hopefully this new generation would be smarter than that.

Has anybody seen the movie "A day without a mexican"?
Giga there is this character in the movie(no he isn\'t racist) who reminds me of you. Or at least thinks like you. And there was a scene where this migrant worker shoots in the direction of his kid in order to shoot a rattle snake. The dude freaks out and runs out and starts to whine that he could of shot his kid. The kid\'s grandpa tell the kid to say thanks to the migrant worker and the kid responds "gracias" The father of the kid said "ohh now you\'re speaking spanish now?" and the grandpa asked the dude "can\'t you say "gracias" and the guy responded


"No but I can say "thank you""


Sadly I know Giga isn\'t the only one who feels this way.


Sadly.
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2004, 05:13:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ginko
I have a question, why is it that the United States has one of the highest crime rates in the world?  I\'ve always wondered that and have never been able to find an answer.  Is it something in the water?  

The U.S. is arrogant, I doubt they pay any mind to these kinds of statistics and unfortunately we all have to pay for it.  Yes, I know there are worse places to live, what interest me are the better.
 


What do all of those countries have in common Ginko?  They are small with small populations.  This discussion has taken place before on this board regarding Sweden and its decades long control of its population in order to achieve a balance so that the government could subsidide "welfare".

Globalization?  A vast majority in the US oppose it.  Why do you think we didn\'t sign the Kyoto Protocals?  Join the International Court?  Because we wanted to keep our soveriegnty.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2004, 05:42:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Ryu is king.


Where are all of the religious extremist?

In the Government. The Bush Admin. isn\'t trying to slap their "Christian values" in our face? BULLSHIT


First Ryu lives in a fantasy world.  Secondly, didn\'t I warn you a while back about your profanity Mystiq?  This is your last warning - tone it down.  I don\'t mind it, but every post from you lately begins with a profanity laced comment.  What "Christian values" has the Bush administration "slapped in your face Mystiq"?  I recall asking you this countless times, yet you never answer.  


Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq

C\'mon Bush is getting pulled by the extreme left so hard his arm might come off. Who do you think got all of the support from those evangelist who made their people vote for him? Bush right now is there because his "Christian" values rose him above the sinful pro-abortion candidate.
 

So Bush was elected because of the issue of abortion?  You are a complete idiot Mystiq.  He was elected because of terrorism and national security.  "Made their people vote for him?" :laughing:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/35336.htm



Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq


Why is he sinful? Go to any church, go to any religious forums, ask any religious person why they aren\'t voting for Kerry and you would be surprised how many people can\'t look past freedom of choice.
 

WTF are you talking about?  Another incoherent statement from Mystiq...  

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq

The extreme right has all the cards now. You might like to think that the Government is full of wise and respectful men right now but you\'re lying to yourself if you think that these religious activist aren\'t taking Bush\'s win as a monument for Christianity. Ask any religious Christian right now. Bush is a symbol for the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, the ban on homosexual marriage and the pushing of the "creation" bullshit on our textbooks. And Bush has to keep his conservative base happy and I don\'t doubt he will.


Roe v. Wade overturned?  Won\'t happen.  Homosexual marriage.  Three quarters of the country opposes it - that means even some liberals opposed it so don\'t try and hang that one soley on Conservatives.  What is wrong with learning about Creationism as well as evolution?  Should a child have right to choose what they believe?

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq

Schools are FINE. Just because the founding fathers used Christian morals in order to keep virtue on our society doesn\'t make this country founded by Christianity. I really don\'t see the bitching about the school system.


This country was founded on the principles of Christianity which helped guide and shape its foundation.  Sorry if you don\'t want to accept that, but it is a fact.  

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq

That kids of illegal immigrants are getting an education out of your tax money!!!???


Illegals should be deported along with their kids.  I disagree just because someone is born here they get automatic citizenship regardless of their parents status.

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq

I\'ve never had health insurance other than Medicaid. My dad has worked at many places but never had enough to pay 452 dollars a month for health insurance. In fact my neighbors didn\'t either and they were legal!
 

I could actually get cheaper insurance - go online and get a quote from any health insurance provider and you will see it doesn\'t have to cost that much.  Why don\'t I do that you ask?  Well, I could for my son, but my wife had cancer 6 years ago and she is a "high risk" applicant so they would deny her.  I suck it up and pay because I have to.

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Welcome to America. The land that used to be equality. The land that used to have opportunities without having some semi-racist moron bitching about it. The land that everybody once shared. The land that recently is becoming more and more full of materialistic, arrogant "Americans" who would rather step on the hand of the poor than put a dollar in it.

Hopefully this new generation would be smarter than that.



Semi racist?  Isn\'t that you ranting on about whitey?  BTW are you a member of MEChA or La Raza? ;)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 06:18:32 AM by GigaShadow »
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