Hello

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Author Topic: The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan  (Read 2648 times)

Offline Coredweller
  • The War on Error
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5654
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« on: April 11, 2005, 12:33:37 PM »
I think about this issue from time to time and wonder why the US seems so backwards compared to other industrialized democracies with regard to healthcare.  The article below highlights how our current healthcare system is crippling our domestic manufacturers and our economy in one important market - automobiles.  

Our domestic auto manufacturers have many problems to overcome if they want to become competitive with asian and european imports.  Domestic cars may always be viewed as inferior by certain buyers even long after the appropriate quality improvements have been implemented, but it seems to me that the Big 3 could become competitive immediately on certain products if they could at least get their pricing corrected.  If they were priced significantly lower than the competition, they would become a reasonable alternative to the imports.

This is not possible as long as they are hobbled by medical insurance payments for retirees.  It seems that our elected leadership, and even some of the corporations themselves are reflexively opposed to a national healthcare plan on ideological grounds only.  It\'s sort of like the Democrats\' automatic ideological support of gun control in spite of evidence that it\'s hurting their election prospects.  In this case however, the lack of a national health care plan is hurting us all us on both sides of the fence.

Why are so many in the US opposed to this?  If we could assemble a well-thought-out national health care plan, we would save money, cover the working poor, and most important, make our domestic manufacturers more competitive while creating jobs.


http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=52344


Quote
Japan\'s health care gives Toyota edge


By James B. Treece
Automotive News / March 28, 2005


TOKYO -- Imagine how much stronger General Motors would be if it launched three additional new-model programs every year, each costing about $1 billion.

It could, if it didn\'t have to pay for its retirees\' health care.

That is one of the most fundamental differences between GM and Toyota Motor Corp. GM pays for the health care of 339,000 retirees - and the number grows every year. In contrast, Toyota pays for fewer than 3,000 retirees\' health care in Japan, a number that remains fairly stable.

That difference gives Toyota and other Japanese carmakers a massive advantage over their American rivals.

"The cost of health care in the U.S. is making American businesses extremely uncompetitive vs. our global counterparts," says GM CEO Rick Wagoner.

Toyota and other Japanese carmakers benefit from a national health care plan that reduces its obligations to retirees to almost nothing.

Wagoner and other U.S. auto industry executives are increasingly vocal in seeking government action to address this competitive disadvantage. But Wagoner stops short of seeking a national solution as comprehensive as Japan\'s.

Day and night

A close look at the numbers at GM and Toyota shows diametrically different conditions.

About 1,200 of Toyota\'s Japanese employees will retire this year. Within two years, each will switch from the company-backed health insurance scheme to the national health plan. At that point, Toyota\'s spending on its retiree\'s health care drops to zero.

Toyota pays health care costs for its employees in Japan in the form of premiums for medical insurance. But it does not continue to pay those costs for retirees. Former employees of Nissan Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. also turn to the Japanese government for health care coverage.

The American Big 3 pay - and pay and pay - for their retirees\' health care.

GM covers the health care costs of approximately 125,000 active employees and 339,000 retirees. Health care costs for those retirees amounted to approximately $3.6 billion last year.

That\'s more than two-thirds of the $5.2 billion GM spent on health care and medical-insurance premiums last year. GM also contributed about $9 billion in 2004 to a trust fund set up to pay for health care costs.

In 2004, Ford Motor Co. spent $2.0 billion on health care for U.S. retirees.

The Chrysler group last year spent $1.3 billion on retirees\' health care.

$1,525 per vehicle

GM says that its payments for retirees\' health care - more than what the company spent for steel - add about $1,525 to the cost of every vehicle the company sells.

In contrast, Toyota must contribute to health insurance payments for only about 64,500 active workers in Japan.

Toyota\'s health care costs are so negligible that they aren\'t even a line item in the company\'s financial statements. Toyota benefits both from the Japanese national health plan\'s coverage of retirees\' medical needs and from the way that plan is structured.

Health care is paid for through a combination of mandatory payroll deductions from employees and employers. The cost is spread equally among various employers. That means older companies with large numbers of retirees are not at a disadvantage compared to companies with fewer retirees.

GM argues that it pays for more than its own employees and retirees. Indirectly, it pays for the approximately 45 million Americans who do not have health insurance. That\'s because medical providers charge higher fees to those who are covered by insurance to compensate for those who are not covered.

Toyota does not pay extra taxes to fund the government health care plan. Corporate income tax rates in Japan and the United States are virtually identical at just below 42 percent.

Perhaps sensitive to comparisons, Toyota declined to say whether its total health care spending in Japan amounted to more or less than $10 million a year.

The difference represents a huge competitive disadvantage for GM. Money that must be spent on retirees\' health care cannot be spent on developing new models, upgrading factory equipment or hiring the most sought-after designers.

"The impact of the health care burden is particularly frustrating, because over the past decade GM has made huge improvements in our operational competitiveness," Wagoner says. "We have some of the most productive plants in North America, including four of the top five, and our quality has improved dramatically."

Wagoner\'s plan

Wagoner stops short of calling for a national health plan.

He wants industry, government and labor to cooperate to find ways to hold down spiraling costs.

"We need to encourage access to affordable health care coverage for all our citizens," he says. GM then wouldn\'t have to pay indirectly for the uninsured.

He also wants to address so-called catastrophic health care costs, which account for 30 percent of all medical costs. He calls for a "comprehensive insurance model to better share these catastrophic costs among all consumers."

Most of all, he wants Americans to be smarter consumers of health care, choosing less expensive yet comparable medicines whenever possible. But that\'s unlikely, as long as Americans believe that someone else, whether an insurance company or the government, is picking up the tab.

There is no evidence that Japanese consumers are any savvier in their health care spending than Americans. But in Japan, it\'s the government picking up the tab for retirees. In America, GM retirees pass the bill to GM.
ZmÒëĎCęЯ
Let the Eagle Soar!
\"The American Dream: You have to be asleep to believe it.\"  - George Carlin

Offline Coredweller
  • The War on Error
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5654
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 12:44:58 PM »
I didnt\' think I posted this in the Off Topic forum, but maybe I screwed up.  If someone could move it back to Current Events, that would be cool.  Thanks.
ZmÒëĎCęЯ
Let the Eagle Soar!
\"The American Dream: You have to be asleep to believe it.\"  - George Carlin

Offline Black Samurai
  • RAMEN, BITCHES!!!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5073
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://www.zombo.com
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 02:01:04 PM »
I agree 100% but I\'m vacating the premises before Giga shows up and his head explodes.

;)
[SIZE=\"4\"][COLOR=\"Red\"]I\'m sorry, That\'s not a hair question.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Offline Avatarr
  • Wise Member

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1647
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://www.sheepsheet.com
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 02:22:22 PM »
YOU KNOW WHY THE USA DOESN\'T HAVE A UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM? BECAUSE IF THEY GET ONE, THAT\'LL BE SUPPORTING COMMUNISM.

I swear you people are so dumb.

Offline mm
  • clyde\'s boss
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15576
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 02:32:56 PM »
we don\'t have to have 23% sales tax just to support the lazy and ignorant
\"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.\" - Clemenza

Offline Coredweller
  • The War on Error
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5654
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 02:59:09 PM »
Subtract whatever portion of your paycheck goes to your employer\'s health insurance plan now (if you even have health coverage...) then consider that a national universal coverage program would cost LESS than the current system, then add some increase in personal income tax to cover it.

Don\'t assume there would be a significant change in your net income.

What you probably would have is greater job security because your employer would be better able to compete with foreign companies in global markets.  This would result in an increase in domestic jobs and a reduction in unemployment.  Let\'s not forget an increase in productivity when workers have better health coverage and they are treated for illness more quickly and effectively.  The final product is a stronger US economy and probably a better salary for you personally.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 03:02:58 PM by Coredweller »
ZmÒëĎCęЯ
Let the Eagle Soar!
\"The American Dream: You have to be asleep to believe it.\"  - George Carlin

Offline THX
  • nigstick
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8158
  • Karma: +10/-0
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 08:02:46 PM »
So Canada is already letting the government regulate the healthcare correct?  Doesn\'t this mean you can\'t choose whichever doctor you want?

And to point out what MM said, I take care of myself, watch what I eat, exercise regularly etc...  It would suck to see MY taxes rise even more every year when I pass by the fatties stuffing themselves at McDonald\'s and the all-you-can-eat steak buffets.  I know accidents happen, but that\'s what insurance is for.

In a perfect world a social type of healthcare system would work, but we live in a world where being healthy takes a backseat to efficiency, self-satisfaction, and laziness.

/endthesis
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 08:04:42 PM by THX »

\"i thought america alreay had been in the usa??? i know it was in australia and stuff.\"
-koppy *MEMBER KOPKING FANCLUB*
\"I thought japaneses where less idiot than americans....\" -Adan
\"When we can press a button to transport our poops from our colon to the toilet, I\'ll be impressed.\" -Gman

Offline Avatarr
  • Wise Member

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1647
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://www.sheepsheet.com
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2005, 10:53:01 PM »
It\'s that kind of mentality that has ambulance officers asking half-dead people if they have medical insurance. But maybe there\'s something to it. >_< Maybe the USA just has too many stupid people.

Offline Bozco
  • Tenchu Fanboy
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7043
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 12:12:24 AM »
Avatarr, calling others stupid doesn\'t make you smart.

Offline Samwise
  • Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12129
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://151.200.3.8/~vze29k6v/you.html
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 02:45:27 AM »
Yes is does. You\'re all stupid and I\'m teh smart.
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAPETIME!
(thanks Chizzy!)

Offline GmanJoe

  • Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12133
  • Karma: +10/-0
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2005, 04:06:08 AM »
The Japanese gov\'t doesn\'t have to spend several billions of dollars on thier military either, the US is there to protect them. They don\'t have a military as large as they\'ve had in WW2. They divert that cost to their economy. Lucky bastards! I want a free PS3!
\"Gee,  I dunno.  If I was a chick, I\'d probably want a kiss (or more) from Durst, too.\"--SineSwiper 9/23/03 (from another forum)
Originally posted by Seed_Of_Evil I must admit that the last pic of her ass will be used in my next masturbation. She\'s hot as hell, one of my

Offline GigaShadow
  • Information Minister
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2005, 04:14:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Coredweller
Subtract whatever portion of your paycheck goes to your employer\'s health insurance plan now (if you even have health coverage...) then consider that a national universal coverage program would cost LESS than the current system, then add some increase in personal income tax to cover it.


We would still be paying for those who don\'t work or work part time.  Sorry I don\'t agree with your analysis and I don\'t want to be carrying anyone else\'s weight.  

Quote
Originally posted by Coredweller
What you probably would have is greater job security because your employer would be better able to compete with foreign companies in global markets.  This would result in an increase in domestic jobs and a reduction in unemployment.  Let\'s not forget an increase in productivity when workers have better health coverage and they are treated for illness more quickly and effectively.  The final product is a stronger US economy and probably a better salary for you personally.


Increase in employment and job performance?  

:laughing:

This would only encourage people not to work and go to the doctor more often.  Canada has this and they don\'t treat illnesses quickly because there is usually a nice long wait to see any type of doctor.  National healthcare screams Socialism - we are a Capitalist society Core.  We reward those who work and not those who want a free ride.  National healthcare does not encourage hard work and would only weaken our economy.  The Healthcare industry wouldn\'t ever go along with this.  It certainly wouldn\'t be worth going to medical school under this plan and accumulate student loan debt only to be paid a capped government rate for your work.  I could go on, but national healthcare will not happen.
\"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.\"  - Churchill
[/i]
[/size]One Big Ass Mistake America

Global Warming ROCKS!!!![/b]

Offline Avatarr
  • Wise Member

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1647
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://www.sheepsheet.com
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2005, 05:30:34 AM »
Ah that\'s the main problem with people who oppose national health care programs. You just don\'t think that health is a fundamental right - as fundamental as the right to vote.

Everything should be a business. It\'s fair enough to have businesses and make profit, but why should this philosophy extend to things like health? It\'s your kind of mentality that has pharmaceutical companies make up conditions so they can sell their drugs. You make me shake my head.

But before we veer further into the murky waters of the philosophical, how in god\'s name did you make the connection between unemployment and a national health care program? You think people would quit their jobs because they don\'t have to worry about health expenses anymore? That\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve heard all day.

Offline GmanJoe

  • Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12133
  • Karma: +10/-0
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2005, 05:38:24 AM »
People forget that many countries with a national healthcare have small populations relative to the US. The US has nearly 300 million people. Compare that to Canada\'s 25 million. And with the amount of fat couch potatoes we have in the US that end up with health problems, they alone would cost the tax payers several billions of dollars. Then we got retirees and illegals who get medical assistance.....

man...what a mess.
\"Gee,  I dunno.  If I was a chick, I\'d probably want a kiss (or more) from Durst, too.\"--SineSwiper 9/23/03 (from another forum)
Originally posted by Seed_Of_Evil I must admit that the last pic of her ass will be used in my next masturbation. She\'s hot as hell, one of my

Offline GigaShadow
  • Information Minister
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • http://
The US Needs a National, Universal Healthcare coverage plan
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2005, 06:29:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Avatarr
Ah that\'s the main problem with people who oppose national health care programs. You just don\'t think that health is a fundamental right - as fundamental as the right to vote.

Everything should be a business. It\'s fair enough to have businesses and make profit, but why should this philosophy extend to things like health? It\'s your kind of mentality that has pharmaceutical companies make up conditions so they can sell their drugs. You make me shake my head.

But before we veer further into the murky waters of the philosophical, how in god\'s name did you make the connection between unemployment and a national health care program? You think people would quit their jobs because they don\'t have to worry about health expenses anymore? That\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve heard all day.


Avatarr read Core\'s post.  He is saying unemployment would go down with National Healthcare - I see the opposite.  Why work full time - which is required to get health insurance in most cases - when you can work part time and get the same benefit?  One of the main benefits from having a full time job is the health care.  

I also don\'t like the fact that my money would be used to support those who don\'t work or don\'t want to work.  I prefer to pay for my healthcare and after all you get what you pay for.  As Gman said, this country has nearly 300 million people in it, if healthcare was free going into see the doctor would be an ordeal.  As of now if I have a problem like an upper respiratory infection I can get in the same day and it only takes 20 minutes.  

Health care is not a universal right for those not willing to work for it.  This is capitalism and yes it is a business.  The population of this country alone would hinder any attempt at universal healthcare being efficient.  Furthermore, some in my generation and most in this younger generation expect everthing for free and sorry, but that is not how things work.  If you don\'t have healthcare, get off your ass, go find a full time job and work like most Americans do.

Lastly, I agree medical costs are too high and I do agree something should be done about making it more affordable, but that is another discussion.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 06:34:21 AM by GigaShadow »
\"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.\"  - Churchill
[/i]
[/size]One Big Ass Mistake America

Global Warming ROCKS!!!![/b]

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk