Good Gamespy article "Do Hardcore Gamers still matter ?"

A good feature on gamespy about this topic :

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p1.html

It\'s pretty obvious to see why I don\'t like marketing guys. Quality > Quantity is one of my motto\'s, so I don\'t like the marketing dude.

With the upcoming E3 i think this is a good food for thought. Next gen might make some devs to \'play it safe\' and aim mass mainstream but they also know
that there will be developers who will push the enevelope.

I\'m happy to see that devs still bother to make great action adventure single player games like ES4:Oblivion, Alan Wake, DreamFall:The longestJourney etc.

I know i should contribute a bit more myself by picking up games like ShadowOfTheCollossus, Okami, Katamari Damaci and such, to support those developers. Of course time & money will always be a slight issue...

Unfortunately the more hardware advavnce and open doors to bigger possibilities at the same time games become more complex, need more time and money to make.
 
 Its riskier to experiment or try something new.

 Ofcourse the big old time developers like Capcom, Konami, Namco etc and recently Sony\'s studios have the talents and the money to back up huge AAA  titles. So things arent that bad.

 Smaller developers though will take a huge hit. Most chances are small developers will merge with the big ones but its very unfortunate that many talents lose some of their independence since many publishers care only about easy cash, and rarely want to risk for creativity.

[Living-In-Clip]

No they don\'t.

The gaming industry is the next movie industry and the fact is, the industry will pump out countless generic games and sequels, just like the movie industry. In the meantime, the "hardcore" section will just be happy when they get a new Nintendo first party title or the rare third party title that stands out above the rest. The "hardcore" gamer has not really counted since gaming became so popular.

Also, I think the "hardcore" gamer is moving towards the PC end of things, if for no other reason because of the community that most games can harvest with mods and what not.

Actually, LiC, it seems like hardcore gamers have panned Rare since the N64 days. Higher expectations.

You\'re right, though. We don\'t matter.

Personally what changed today compared to the past is that games for hardcore gamers arent reduced. I am positive that they actually increased. The main difference is that games appealing to a broader view have increased more.

 Usually the self proclaimed hardcore gamers complaining that they dont matter as much as previously are the ones that were very very young back in the old days and games appealed mostly to the younger audience which is far less than today\'s which includes both teen and mature ages.

 With other words many of these compare the old days when gamers were few with today that are many and dont like the fact that they dont belong to the "minority" of the "unique" and that more people play the games they play.

 For example: Pro Evo soccer is the best most complicated football game money can buy IMO. Its deep and has everything a hardcore gamer wants. Today countless of gamers care about it, both hardcore and non-harcdore gamers play it, but hardcore gamers playng PES are a lot lot more compared to the number of hardcore gamers that would have playied it 15 years back if it existed back then.
 
 Some "ex-hardcore" gamers tend to complain that its a game appealing to the masses just because too many gamers play it while they avoid the fact that hardcore gamers today are more because more gamers can have the chance to try games thus more potential hardcore gamers can emerge.

 Another example is MK. Some "ex-hardcore" gamers loved MK, a fighting game that actually sucked compared to Street Fighter, KOF etc but was praised thanks to its "real looking" graphics and violence. MK today is relatively less appealing than in the past IMO than Tekken, SC and VF than what it used to be compared to the fighting games of the past

 What I dont like today compared to the past is the fact that some "mediocre" games get more popularity than they deserve (EA\'s games anyone?).
 
  Even more what I dont like is that some old timer developers or not so old timers tend to get their old franchises and then ruin them or at the best case scenario remain static.
 An example for that is SEGA. Ruined Shinobi with the new installments, and totally murdered Sonic with the latest Sonic games (Shadow:Sonic game with GUNS?? ).
 Other examples:
Tomb Raider has gone from great to worse.
Wipeout from great to mediocre.
FF although great still playing almost like the old 80s 90s final fantasy games.
SEGA remade all time classics just with prettier graphics(ex:Golden Axe)

 Other things I dont like:
We are being bombarded with FPS shooters (just check the list of next gen console games)
Countless PC-Console/Console-PC ports (especially war games BLEH)
Not a worthy Sonic game since the DC days (if we exclude the new DS game)
Not a  worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)
Waiting for a Phantasy Star worthy of the crown the old ones got

 Arcades suck now!!Where are the good old times when people showed their skill and everyone gathered to watch or compete?

 I miss the old style PC with a "character".

 Games based on movies that sell because of the movie popularity (King Kong, Enter the Matrix etc)

 WHY THE HELL THEY FUCKED UP WORMS BY MAKING IT 3D??

 etc etc

[Living-In-Clip]

Actually, LiC, it seems like hardcore gamers have panned Rare since the N64 days. Higher expectations.

You\'re right, though. We don\'t matter.

You mistunderstood me. I was not speaking of Rare, the developer. I was saying that the hardcore gamer looks forward to the RARE third party title that stands out above the rest. It seems now\'a\'days, if it isn\'t a first party or sometimes second party title, it isn\'t all that great. I remember a time when I swore by Capcom but hell, other than maybe Okami (spell check?) when is the last time they made an outstandin game (I know, RE 4........) .

Some "ex-hardcore" gamers tend to complain that its a game appealing to the masses just because too many gamers play it while they avoid the fact that hardcore gamers today are more because more gamers can have the chance to try games thus more potential hardcore gamers can emerge.

Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,

Not a worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)

Counting spinoffs, this is completely off-base. Not counting spin-offs, still off-base.

What is people\'s problem with Super Mario Sunshine? I got about 117 Shines in it on my best run, and played it through at least twice. Probably 50-60 hours of gameplay, at least. It had some shortcomings but was definitely a 9/10.

[Living-In-Clip]

Not a worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)

Mario Kart?
Super Mario 64?
Paper Mario?

Quit talkin out of your ass. The only Mario I didn\'t care for was Sunshine.

And the upcoming Nintendo DS SMB platformer is, if nothing else, promising.
 
-Dan

Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,

On the other side of that coin, however, ARE the art/indie games/films that cater to the niche groups.  No, you\'re right, the casual gamer will dictate the far majority of games, but that is not to say that all of a sudden we\'re going to take a loss of innovative titles.  If anything, we took that loss back during the PSX days.

[Jumpman]

Mario Tennis and Mario Golf are also fun gems no one seems man enough to play!

[Living-In-Clip]

On the other side of that coin, however, ARE the art/indie games/films that cater to the niche groups.  No, you\'re right, the casual gamer will dictate the far majority of games, but that is not to say that all of a sudden we\'re going to take a loss of innovative titles.  If anything, we took that loss back during the PSX days.

That is exactly what I said.
We took that loss when gaming became a popular medium. Yes, there will always be a few games that are niche\' and people "hardcore" enjoy, but they are few and far in bewteen and with gaming becoming even more popular, those games will fade more and more.

Mario Kart?
Super Mario 64?
Paper Mario?

Quit talkin out of your ass. The only Mario I didn\'t care for was Sunshine.

1)I was refering to the platform games

2)Oh look I said N64=Nintendo 64=Mario64

And if I was wrong about Mario then big deal. Thats not the point anyways.

Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,

 PES, Shadow of Colossus, Viewtiful Joe, DMC1 & DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War are perfect examples of AAA games that can appeal to hardcore and casual gamers.
  I didnt hint out that what you just mentioned doesnt happen. I already pointed out what you said in my examples. Both what you say(which I also said) and what I said in the part you quoted happen. It depends on the games. Some hardcore games do emerge and sometimes they pull both hardcore and casual gamers. Its just that games like GTA, Fifa etc also exist and they are more than they used to be. Tekken, SC and VF are examples of games that have a share of both casual and hardcore gamers.
 You just tend to refer to everything as if only one side of the coin exists. And because of that I am sure you also belong to those supposed "ex-hardcore" gamers that complain because for you the bigger the number of gamers occupied with a title the more you automatically translate this to "game appealing to the masses only" avoiding that in reality some of these titles also have a share of hardcore gamers -->see PES.

 And its not like the kind of gamers that praise GTA today as the best thing ever didnt exist years ago. Mortal Kombat succeeded the same way back in the "good old times" and was being praised by many as a superb fighting game when Street Fighter2 and other fighting games were better in every way by difference.

 Also as Phill said innovative titles wont dissapear all of the sudden.

 You tend to refer to things as if  in the past we got hundreds of innovative and original titles (yeah right) and now we get one or two by the same developers which is totally untrue.

 We still get enough innovative titles. Only relatively to the numbers of mass appealing games these titles seem fewer compared to the past.

 I know one thing. That in the hundreds of mass appealing games I also get enough superb innovative and creative titles from some old classic or new developers that also become a success.

 I dont play GTA, I dont play FIFA, I dont buy games based on movies (enter the matrix was an exception and I sold it back), I hate the NFS series, I appreciate and buy many games that arent of mass appeal, and I still find enough great games to master and still wait for others to be released or reach my area like Okami (which I loved since I learned about it last summer) to keep me a happy gamer.
 
 I know that there are also more and tons of uncreative succesful games in the shelves-more compared to years ago but I dont give a shit about these. If I ever want to give them a try out of curiosity I ll pirate them to "harm" them and satisfy my curiosity at the same time.

 In the mean time I ll support the most creative titles and buy them original as my thanks to the effort these developers have put to make them.

The main difficulty I have in following this thread is I don\'t know what a "hardcore" gamer is.
 
The only thing I think I can say for sure is that if you play Dragonball Z games, you\'re not one.
 
-Dan

[Living-In-Clip]

PES, Shadow of Colossus, Viewtiful Joe, DMC1 & DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War are perfect examples of AAA games that can appeal to hardcore and casual gamers.

Eh?

DMC3 with it\'s difficulity did not appeal to the casual gamer. Same with Ninja Gaiden.

SoC I am willin\' to pet most people don\'t know about and even if they do, it falls into the second party title situation.