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Author Topic: Ps3 = Madness  (Read 5087 times)

Offline BizioEE

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Ps3 = Madness
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2002, 03:19:13 AM »
Quote
There! Confirmed source of Xbox having a fillrate of 0.932 GPixels/sec (or 932 MPixels/sec). Now, since this is a comparasment between the two (Xbox - PS2), we\'ll compare them both under the same conditions (using 32 Pixel polygons):


when you use 4xFSAA you have 3.7 GPixel/sec(4x0.932)--->29.125 MTris/sec X 4=116.5Mtris/sec(using 32 Pixel polygons)...right?
...however I don\'t know why you continue to make a fool of yourself...PS2 is a flawed piece of hardware compared to both GCN and XBox in the graphics capabilities...while GCN can process more or less the same number of polys then PS2 but with FAR prettier textures...XBox can do everything better(more polys and better textures) and I don\'t understand why you fool deny the evidence...
XBox can process more polys with 0 textures
XBox can process FAR more polys with 1 textures
XBox can process FAR FAR FAR more polys with 4 textures than PS2!

anything else? :yawn:

Stop talking crap about the XBox...you know nothing about it...

http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,apn%253D11%2526s%253D1017%2526a%253D19278%2526app%253D9%2526ap%253D10,00.asp
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 03:51:30 AM by BizioEE »
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Offline fastson
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Ps3 = Madness
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2002, 04:14:23 AM »


You have difficulty with engrish? Hello?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 04:17:04 AM by fastson »
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Offline seven
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Ps3 = Madness
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2002, 04:31:10 AM »
Quote
when you use 4xFSAA you have 3.7 GPixel/sec(4x0.932)--->29.125 MTris/sec X 4=116.5Mtris/sec(using 32 Pixel polygons)...right?


LOL, you\'re missing the point. Xbox can NOT draw more than 0.932 GPixels/sec.

Quote
...however I don\'t know why you continue to make a fool of yourself...PS2 is a flawed piece of hardware compared to both GCN and XBox in the graphics capabilities...while GCN can process more or less the same number of polys then PS2 but with FAR prettier textures...XBox can do everything better(more polys and better textures) and I don\'t understand why you fool deny the evidence...


Who\'s in denial here? You? Or me? ;)

Quote
XBox can process more polys with 0 textures


Maybe, but it can only render 29.125 MTis/sec whereas PS2 can render 75 MTRis/sec. Can you see it? PS2 > Xbox with o Textures.

Quote
XBox can process FAR more polys with 1 textures


Not in rendering though. PS2 can redner 37.5 MTris/sec, Xbox 29.125 MTris/sec. PS2 > Xbox with 1 Texture.

Quote
XBox can process FAR FAR FAR more polys with 4 textures than PS2!


Not far far far more. But it can render more than PS2. PS2 < Xbox with 4 textures.

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2002, 04:57:25 AM »
The pixel fill-rate of the NV2a with 4xFSAA is 3.7 Gpixel/sec!

XBox=3.7 with 0 textures
PS2=2.4 with 0 textures

XBox>PS2

XBox=3.7 with 1 texture
PS2=1.2 with 1 texture

XBox>>PS2

XBox=3.7 with 2 textures
PS2=0.6 with 2 textures

XBox>>>PS2

No one will develop game with less than 2 textures per poly=PS2 is a flawed piece of hardware compared to XBox!:)

anything else?
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline ooseven
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2002, 05:07:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE


No one will develop game with less than 2 textures per poly=PS2 is a flawed piece of hardware compared to XBox!:)

anything else?


yeah but isn\'t amusing that the all mighty X box :rolleyes: is being out sold by the "FLAWED" PS2.

FFS people....... this BS and Technobable mean nothing to Joe Public out there

they buy the console that lets them play the games they like on.

yeah its as EASY as that...just a pitty that M$$$$ fail to realise this...

hmm maybe theis is the reason why they are doing piss poor Copyrighted © ooseven 2002 in Japan and Europe.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 05:10:27 AM by ooseven »
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Offline seven
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Ps3 = Madness
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2002, 05:19:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE
The pixel fill-rate of the NV2a with 4xFSAA is 3.7 Gpixel/sec!

XBox=3.7 with 0 textures
PS2=2.4 with 0 textures

XBox>PS2

XBox=3.7 with 1 texture
PS2=1.2 with 1 texture

XBox>>PS2

XBox=3.7 with 2 textures
PS2=0.6 with 2 textures

XBox>>>PS2

No one will develop game with less than 2 textures per poly=PS2 is a flawed piece of hardware compared to XBox!:)

anything else?


That is none sense Bizio. Read the presentation from Michael Abrash. XBox CAN ONLY DRAW 0.932 GPixels/sec[/u]. You\'re denying the facts above. You have yet to explain to me how 2xFSAA magically doubles the fillrate 2 times. And also, if this is true :rolleyes: how come none of the games to date have AA?

And yes, games are being developed with less than 2 textures per polygons. Objects that are far away don\'t need 2 textures. For what, if you don\'t see them? Close up objects, yes - but not all of them. Stop denying the facts bizio.

Offline seven
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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2002, 05:52:28 AM »
Another thing about that 4 GPixels/sec fillrate that Xbox supposedly has using 2xFSAA:

Nvidia started listing "sample fillrates" of their graphics cards, demonstrating how much it would be when FSAA is enabled. This is however not the effective pixelfillrate that can be drawn on screen.

Therefore, Xbox only has a maximum fillrate of no more than 0.932 GPixels/sec and a so call "Nvidia AA sample fillrate" of ~4 GPixels/sec with FSAA.

Quote
Source: http://216.12.218.25/domain/www.beyond3d.com/articles/gf4launch/index1.php
Note that nVIDIA are now listing \'AA Samples\' rather than fillrate in Pixels / Texels per second, I\'ve supplied what I would assume the relevant Pixel/Texel fillrates would be (for reference the specs of the highest GeForce3 are included):
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 06:02:34 AM by seven »

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2002, 06:00:11 AM »
Quote
That is none sense Bizio. Read the presentation from Michael Abrash. XBox CAN ONLY DRAW 0.932 GPixels/sec. You\'re denying the facts above. You have yet to explain to me how 2xFSAA magically doubles the fillrate 2 times. And also, if this is true  how come none of the games to date have AA?


It\'s nothing to do with fill-rate,it\'s due to memory bandwidth...once dev will optimize the usage of memory and find new ways and tricks to "squeeze" the best from UMA you\'ll see most games using FSAA and a boost in fill-rate performance...

Having said all that, the Xbox GPU will be able, even at 233 MHz, to handle up to 116.5 million Gouraud-shaded, two-texture triangles per second, complete with transformation, clipping, and perspective projection. With one infinite hardware light added, the rate will be at least 58-59 Mtris/sec.
The GPU\'s raw fill rate at 233 MHz will be 0.932 Gpix/sec. To provide some context for that number, at a resolution of 640×480, it is sufficient to draw every pixel on the screen more than 50 times per frame, at a frame rate of 60 Hz. (TV is the normal Xbox output device, although HDTV and VGA monitors are supported. TV is interlaced, but Xbox will normally render noninterlaced, then filter the interlaced fields from the full frame, so I\'ll use full 640×480 TV-frame resolution in this article.) There\'s also occlusion-detection circuitry that can increase fill rate by up to 4X=3.7 Gpixel/sec); the effect varies depending on whether pixels are occluded when they\'re drawn, but tends to be greatest exactly when it\'s needed most,when there\'s a lot of overdraw. Finally, antialiased drawing can produce still higher equivalent fill rates!

anything else? :yawn:
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 06:13:17 AM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline seven
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2002, 06:21:01 AM »
Bizio, you\'re a idiot. Stop denying the facts by taking "AA sample fillrates". Here\'s a valid source from Microsoft themselves, showed at the Game Developer Conference:

Source: http://www.gdconf.com/archives/proceedings/2001/abrash.ppt


Now I don\'t know if you\'re blind or something, but that is a FACT. In case you haven\'t seen it yet, it says:

Really can NOT-DRAW AT 4 GPixels/sec Those are the old numbers (asuming a clock rate of 250 MHz), so you do the maths and Xbox still can\'t draw at 3.7 GPixels/sec.

Now, stop this arguement, it\'s pathetic. Unless you have a "intelligent" reply, consider this my last reply.

Offline ooseven
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« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2002, 06:23:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE


anything else? :yawn:


NEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!


i hope not because if i see another Tech spec in this forum...i Won\'t Be held responcible for my actions !

BizioEE...Seven shame on you\'s
in fact Shame on ALL of you !

this place is turing more and more into GEEKS Heaven ever day :crying:

like i SAID

triangles per second

and

perspective projection

and what not.......does absolutly F all to Console Sales as ..."for the second time" Joe Public nither knows or carses how much console A can pump pixels out over Console B.

they like me just want to play Games !

not measure Geekyness like what is going on in here.

After all everyone buying a console looks at the following


  • Console price
  • Game Price
  • Availability of AAA games
  • potential future of the console
  • potential Killer Apps
  • Controller feal / size (for comfort)
  • Will this Console get me layed ?
  • back Catalogue of games
  • Exclusive titles that they like
  • Etc etc etc etc


lets face it if you where toget 100 people today who just bought a console and asked them what a perspective projection(what ever the fook that is ?)

i bet you that barely a hand full (if at all any)
will know that the Fricking hell you are talking about !
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Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2002, 06:23:46 AM »
Quote
Note that nVIDIA are now listing \'AA Samples\' rather than fillrate in Pixels / Texels per second, I\'ve supplied what I would assume the relevant Pixel/Texel fillrates would be (for reference the specs of the highest GeForce3 are included)


The NV2a is more like a GeForce4-NV25(not GF3), hence the name NV2A.
It got most of the straits found in a final NV25, and it was done 2-3 months before the NV25. Both the NV2A and the NV25 have:

1. nfiniteFX II engine (dual fully programmable vertex shaders). The Geforce3 has the nfiniteFX engine.

2. Improved Z-Occlusion Culling: Z-Occlusion Culling has already been found in the Geforce3. But in the NV25, this feature has been improved to be able to cull more pixel while using less memory bandwidth to do it. The most of the cullings are now done by using on-chip cache to avoid off-chip memory accesses. The NV2A is able to cull 3.7 gigapixels per seconds
(--->I think it\'s only in theory=that\'s why you won\'t see 3.7 Gpixel/sec in game but--->it doesn\'t mean you won\'t see more than 0.932 Gpixel/sec//occlusion-detection circuitry can increase fill rate by up to 4X but the effect varies depending on whether pixels are occluded when they\'re drawn, but tends to be greatest exactly when it\'s needed most,when there\'s a lot of overdraw//so you\'ll see it at different degrees)
.
This spec puts it right up there with the chips in the NV25 family.

3. Vertex Cache, Dual Texture Cache, and Pixel Cache

4. Accuview

5. 4xS FSAA (confirmed by Xbox developers)

Note that the Geforce 3 doesn\'t have the Accuview and 4xS FSAA features.


Now proofs:

Geforce4\'s features (according to Tomshardware):

Vertex Cache: storing vertices after they were sent across the AGP. It\'s used to make the AGP more efficient, by avoiding multiple transmissions of teh same vertices (e.g. primitives that share edges).

Primitive Cache: assembles vertices after processing (after vertex shader) into fundamental primitives to pass onto triangle setup.

Dual Texture Caches: those were already found in Geforce3. The new cache algorithms are advanced to "look ahead" more efficiently in cases of multi-texturing or higher quality filtering. This contributes to the significantly improved 3 and 4 texture performance of Geforce4 Ti.

Pixel Cache: This cache at the end of the rendering pipeline is a coalescing cache, which is very similar to the "write combining" feature of Intel and AMD processors. It waits until a certain amount of pixels have been drawn until it writes them to memory in burst modes.

Improved Z-occlusion culliing: This feature was also found in Geforce3 already, but for NV25 it has been tuned to cull more pixels while using less memory bandwidth to do it. The culling is now done in a certain culling surface cache on-chip to avoid off-chip memory accesses.

Accuview: makes AA look better and run faster

4xS FSAA: this mode is supposed to look a lot better than 4x AA mode, due to a 50% increase in subpixel coverage.

NV2A\'s features (according to ExtremeTech):

Vertex Cache/Dual Texture Caches/Pixel Cache: Other plumbing of interest is the XGPU\'s texturing caching scheme, which is configured in a kind of L1/L2 layout. According to Microsoft\'s Seamus Blackley, textures are decompressed between the two caches. nVidia was willing to state that the XGPU has vertex, texture and pixel caches, though declined to detail their respective sizes.

Improved Z-occlution culling: There are however both L1 and L2 texture caches on the XGPU, and while nVidia was unwilling to disclose their sizes, developers will likely look to tune their engines to get as many cache hits as possible to minimize memory touches. According to Microsoft, many of the Z-occlusion tests occur on-chip and don\'t even touch the caches, never mind system memory.

Accuview: Nvidia provided some additional detail regarding how they architected the XGPU to be as miserly in its memory usage as possible. For instance, with its 4X multisampling antialiasing enabled, the XGPU gains what can be thought of as four-fold increase in performance. That\'s not a typo, here\'s how it works: XGPU has dedicated multisampling hardware than can generate up to four sub-samples per pixel per clock cycle, meaning the "rest" of the XGPU doesn\'t have to spend pixel processing power to generate these samples. In addition, nVidia states that this multisampling hardware doesn\'t have to fetch textures from memory to generate its sub-samples, which is a huge relief for beleaguered memory bandwidth that traditionally gets hammered when super-sampling FSAA is enabled. nVidia likely does this by generating the sub-samples when a texture has already been fetched for some other operation, so as not to duplicate the accesses.

4xS FSAA: there is a 4-sample 9X multi-sampling AA mode on the Xbox that looks even more amazing than 4x FSAA (leaked info from developers)!

Please seven,XBox is not a GF3...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 07:19:45 AM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline ooseven
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2002, 06:34:33 AM »
[sarcasm mode]
BizioEE...Seven ....you two are prime for a job in M$$$$ PR devision in Europe and Japan.

i mean with intresting debate like that :rolleyes:

you are sure to excite the public with your talk of , Dual Texture Cache, and Pixel Cache and what not.

and get them to but the console

you pair of Smooth talking \'tards you ;)

after all anything you 2 bring to the devison a much higher level of excitment that already exsists in the section of MS you are bound to take high ranking jobs within the company.

;)
[/sarcasm mode]

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Offline Tyrant
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Ps3 = Madness
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2002, 06:37:30 AM »
ooseven im with u on this one

really who cares which console is better, if i had the money i would buy all three consoles,

and if u like a particular system then thats yer choice who cares what anyone else thinks.

BTW all these technical specs and paragraphs upon paragraphs make no sense to the average person, heck they make my head hurt without even reading them.
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2002, 06:41:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tyrant_246
ooseven im with u on this one

really who cares which console is better, if i had the money i would buy all three consoles,

and if u like a particular system then thats yer choice who cares what anyone else thinks.

BTW all these technical specs and paragraphs upon paragraphs make no sense to the average person, heck they make my head hurt without even reading them.


too True my like minded friend

i just wish that these to nuckleheads would realise that.
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Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2002, 06:45:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ooseven


too True my like minded friend

i just wish that these to nuckleheads would realise that.


Sorry mate:)...

...but don\'t worry,I\'ve finished and I won\'t reply to seven any more!

ps: you know...I "hate" him:p

ps2: :D you know...I\'m joking seven,I don\'t hate you...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 06:51:52 AM by BizioEE »
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

 

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