Why does everybody hate Hideo Kojima????

You can reduce any story to make it sound like complete and utter trash.  No story retains its integrity when reduced to a few sentences.  CK has depth of plot and character, richness of dialogue and compelling notions.  It succeeds despite avoiding sensationalism and plot contrivences.

There is a very good reason why CK is considered by almost everyone who is anyone the best movie ever made.  You are entitled to your opinion, but I\'m not going to argue its worth for the same reasons why I wouldn\'t argue about Shakespeare\'s worth--if we can\'t share that common ground then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

Too many movies today rely on the Sixth Sense trick ending (Beautiful Mind our so called movie of the year even relied on this lazy man\'s way of writing).

And I\'m being misunderstood.  I do not hate VG stories.  I merely protest when someone aligns VG storytelling with the greats of lit and movies.  There is no comparison.  Perhaps, the best VG story could compare with Ludlum or Deaver--and truth be told I do enjoy reading these sorts of novels as a sort of desert--but they are hack genre writers, following a formula and churning out page turners.  In literary circles they are maligned, but at home, on a comfy chair, they are a sort of guilty pleasure.  

But VGs can\'t compare with even these books because there isn\'t the oportunity to really get into development of character and situation.  After all, it\'s a video game and gamers want to blow things up and kill people.  

Movies hold a similar advantage.  For one thing, VG makers can\'t compare with the quality of the CG or picture.  Also, directors have skilled actors and writers at their disposal.  VG makers do not.  Lastly, movie makers do not have to worry about gameplay, they are telling a story.  That\'s why movie->game projects always turn out to be crap.

VGs should be played or they should hire people with talent.

LOTR is a masterpiece; one of the most important achievements in literary history.  The story/plot is fine (although it\'s been ruined by thousands of hacks that have turned it into a cliche).  What Tolkein did is create an entire world.  Some would say VGs do this too.  I laugh at these people.  Tolkein created histories, languages (complete and learnable), and locals.  Every character in the book can be traced back generations upon generations.  There are stories attatched to every character (if you read his notes).  It is ambitious and successful in its ambition and that is why it still stands up today.  

In truth, I\'d hate to be you.  I play VGs to play video games.  I read for plot and story.  If you are truly entertained by the story/plot of a VG then you are inpoverished in culture, and bereft of a sense of transcendence, granduer and craft.  I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known.  I really don\'t need the pity.  So while I often laugh away the plot and story of a VG, I need only to walk up to a book shelf and have my hunger sated.

Look what happened when Square tried to make a movie.  It nearly ruined them.  Because without game play to hide their atrocious plot and story telling abilities, they were revealed as pompus fools and hacks of the worst kind.  They\'ll never make another movie again, and I don\'t lament that.  Just as I don\'t wish Speilburg and McLeod would drop thier director\'s cap and pen respectively and make VGs.

"I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known"

And having absorbed so much you learned to be justified in making a habit of openly showing contempt for your fellow man and all works that fail to live up to your own narrowly fixed arbitrary standards? I think you need to go back and read the worlds greatest literature again. You\'ve missed a key point most of those works went to great lengths to establish.

Perhaps you like movies more than games?As a movie it could be the best.But we are not comparing MGS with CK.Two different things.Two different techniques.Bob explained what I was trying to say pretty well.

Also does anyone beleive that CK is better or as good as a good book?Have you read a book on CK?Could be the best movie.Not the best from games,books and movies.

But VGs can\'t compare with even these books because there isn\'t the oportunity to really get into development of character and situation. After all, it\'s a video game and gamers want to blow things up and kill people.

MGS aint that kind of game.Killing people is an addition.Thats why its called stealth game.Kojima said he didnt want to have people kill.Its an antiwar game.Personally I never playied MGSs for killing people.Each game is playied for a different reason.I dont think games like FF are liked because you can blow things and kill people.Its action is too slow and has no violence.
Some games can affect people emotionally because you can be the character that lives in the game.Playing the role of Raiden for example and then realizing his past.There are children in these world that are recruited into army, and men with childhood trauma  because of their past as war tools.
(I am not saying that makes it as valuabple as a book.A book does better the job.MGS just does it better than any other game and its the nearest thing u can get from games.)
Even if games can not reach movies in that department thats not the case.And I beleive that games arent better than books.The case is that MGS is the nearest thing you can get.No one said games can be better than books or movies.Its the nearest think you can get and the best effort in games in that department.

That\'s why movie->game projects always turn out to be crap.

The same happens with games that turn into movies.And books that turn into movies.

What Tolkein did is create an entire world. Some would say VGs do this too. I laugh at these people. Tolkein created histories, languages (complete and learnable), and locals. Every character in the book can be traced back generations upon generations. There are stories attatched to every character (if you read his notes). It is ambitious and successful in its ambition and that is why it still stands up today.

Nobody said any game could be as good as Tolkien\'s achivement .The same reason why VGs fail in this department is the the same why movies fail.They cant be too lenghty or as detailed and descriptive.BOOKS MOVIES and GAMES are different things.They shouldnt be compared with the same criteria.They work differently,they have different ways of telling a story.

In truth, I\'d hate to be you. I play VGs to play video games. I read for plot and story. If you are truly entertained by the story/plot of a VG then you are inpoverished in culture, and bereft of a sense of transcendence, granduer and craft. I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known. I really don\'t need the pity. So while I often laugh away the plot and story of a VG, I need only to walk up to a book shelf and have my hunger sated.

MGS is the best effort in games.I do not play Video Games beleiving they are as good as books.Books are better.As a game
 is the best effort and its the only one that tried to  do so.
If there was a book on MGS:SOL I would have bought it and enjoyied it more than the game.I read books.Perhaps not as much as u do but I can tell the difference from a book and a VG.


I ll say what i ve been saying before.MGS is just the best effort you can get in games

I apreciate MGSs efforts as a game.

There are many books that became movies that are as good or better than the book.  Yes books and movies are two different things, but the disiplines overlap and compliment each other.  VGs have an oportunity too, just like film, to capture imaginations, but they don\'t.  Movies start from scripts, scripts written by proffessional writers.

VG are often written and coded by the same people.  If devs would go and hire proffessional writers like movie studios do, we may be seeing some compelling content.  But that doesn\'t happen, and we get crap.

MGS may be the best effort, but it\'s still laughable.

_____
And having absorbed so much you learned to be justified in making a habit of openly showing contempt for your fellow man and all works that fail to live up to your own narrowly fixed arbitrary standards? I think you need to go back and read the worlds greatest literature again. You\'ve missed a key point most of those works went to great lengths to establish.
_____

Try to use words that you understand.  I have no idea what you are trying to say.  From this I can safely say you\'ve played too many VGs and need to read a great deal more.  Beyond that I\'m confounded.

Try to use words that you understand. I have no idea what you are trying to say. From this I can safely say you\'ve played too many VGs and need to read a great deal more. Beyond that I\'m confounded.

http://www.dictionary.com

Come on Dawg, I thought you already learned acting dense just tends to make yourself look foolish. No? If anything confounds you, it must be the result of your own fat ego.

Yeah, I suppose I should read more than ten classics for every RPG I\'ve played instead of the hundred or thousand to one ratio Watchdog must have. Then I might be worthy of alluding to basic life lessons great authors have rehashed throughout the ages :rolleyes:

LOL, I love it when stupid people try to sound smart by using big words.

Watchdog I cant put into my mind  how a movie can be better than a book.
And I dont see how a movie can capture peoples imaginations more than a VG.
And how do you know who wrote the script for a VG?How do you know how talented could be a writer of a game?

Ever complete a game and watch the credits?  You\'ll find your writers there.

LOL, I love it when stupid people try to sound smart by using big words.

This is absurd to say.  It\'s a poor assumption no matter what you are debating.  How is he using "big" words?  Who are they "big" to?  Does intelligence for you mean using "big" words since you have made the connection?  Honestly here, was this comment necessary at all especially since it deals more damage to the person who suggests it rather then the person it was said to?

VG are often written and coded by the same people. If devs would go and hire proffessional writers like movie studios do, we may be seeing some compelling content. But that doesn\'t happen, and we get crap.

Although the goals of these three industries, gaming, film, and literature, is to entertain, don\'t they accomplish it in their own ways through their own mediums?  We play games, we watch movies, we read books... Doesn\'t each have to satisfy their audience with their own particular medium?  If you read a game story, you\'d be bored to tears if it was on paper and wasn\'t accompanied by the actual game and the same with film screenplays if it\'s not with the actual film.  I just think that for what the three mediums set out to do, they all accomplish their goals quite well in their own way.

I\'m with Ryu... books, movies and VGs are 3 different things. If books were the greatest things, I wouldn\'t play VG and watch movies at all. Yet, I read books, watch movies or play VGs each for their own experience. I don\'t see why we even have to compare them.

[Bobs_Hardware]

Well, I\'ll agree with Watchdog in that the very best videogame stories may be as good as the best "page-turner", as they cannot possibly hope to have the sort of depth that he requires to be entertained.

Big is a relative term.  He\'s trying to come off as smart by using fancy words that are obviously outside of his working vocabulary.  Reread his post.  He\'s a fraud, trying to come off as a person coming from a position of expertise.  It\'s pretencious.  I get students like that all the time, students who are bound by their thesaurus and believe I won\'t notice.  Anyway...

I do read screenplays, and stage plays too for that matter.  If well written, they stand up.  Most people read Ibsen, Brecht, Shaw, Pinter, Shakespeare.  Shakespeare is great on paper and on the stage--and, actually, I\'d say it\'s usually better on paper because Shakespeare is tough, and it takes skilled actors to pull it off.  Brecht and Pinter are even tougher.

The graphic\'s artists and CG guys don\'t have to write the movies they work on.  Why does anyone assume that the people coding the graphic\'s engine for a VG is capable of writing a decent story?  Or worse yet, that they produce some of the best stuff ever written?  It\'s lunacy, that\'s all I\'ve ever said.

Seven:  While I agree with what you are saying, I have problems with the gamemakers/writers that take themselves too seriously, that try to be profound and deep when there obviously isn\'t the talent there to take them there (read Square and Konami).

I just don\'t think it\'s fair that you write off the stories in games simply because they aren\'t literary works of art.  A game designer creates a game because they want to create something fun.  People play games because they are interactive.  What they do has some type of effect on the world they are playing in and that\'s what they need.  A book is no different.  If it\'s poorly written, no one will want to read it and the same goes for movies.  So what if a game doesn\'t have this amazing story comparable to Dickens or even Steinbeck?  I don\'t think that was the creators of the videogames intention.  Story is made to push the gameplay along, but in plenty of games, they nix the story altogether and go for the straightaway approach.  I don\'t expect a masterpiece of story from games, but it\'s unfair for you to when that is not their primary goal.

Just a small note, what if big time writers were actually paid to write the next Final Fantasy?  Just how much would that vision be destroyed when someone tells them that that would not make a very fun game?  I can just imagine the writer\\designer issues that would rear their ugly heads almost as soon as the creative process began.  It happens for books, it would probably be even worse for games.  Liberties need to be taken, I just think that the story needs to evolve around a game whereas in films, special effects need to revolve around the story and thus, I don\'t think the two can be fairly compared.

I can apreciate a VG story, I just don\'t align them with books and movies because the talent level isn\'t there yet.  That\'s why I play the games, and give the plots little attention.

It\'s no more unfair when people in forums try to say "[insert VG] is the best story that\'s every been written."  I don\'t go and make a point of trashing the story of VGs.  If you notice, when I speak of a game, I never mention story.  I only bring it up, when someone argues the other side.  I don\'t condemn games because of it.  Like I said, I like MGS (not NEARLY as much as most here though), but I like it because it oozes cool, not because of the standard plot.

I don\'t think you\'re giving the industry enough credit.  You put talented VG designers, good actors, and proffessional writers together and give them a RPG project, and you\'ll get magic.  Maybe not everytime, but you\'d certainly get some gems.

That way the CG artist wouldn\'t have to take time off to write the dialogue, he/she could focus on his/her area of expertise.  This sort of marriage could only help VGs, not hurt.  There would be growing pains to be sure as both sides would be learning the other\'s craft, but it would be worth it.