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Author Topic: Powell\'s key points on Iraq  (Read 4680 times)

Offline SirMystiq

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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2003, 10:17:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Coredweller
I don\'t see how you can call that evidence VERY STRONG.

1.  "intercepted communications about moving stuff" - WHAT STUFF?  A modified vehicle of some kind.  So, because they were talking about moving it, that must mean that it\'s incriminating?  That\'s not proof.

2.  "video footage of an Iraqi Mig simulating spreading anthrax" - I haven\'t seen it, but it\'s hard for me to imagine that this could be incriminating in any way.

3.  "photographs of chemical bunkers and mobile labs."  Photographs are always open to interpretation.  This could be evidence for a photo technician who knows everything about Iraqi construction methods and the designs of chemical labs, but to the layman it\'s meaningless.  Therefore it requres that we trust the photo interpreters to accept it as hard evidence.  Maybe it is, but I think we need something more easily acceptable.  Kennedy\'s photos of the russian missles on the deck of a ship were much more easily understandable than this stuff.

4.  Powell said Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has personally barred Iraqi scientists from participating in interviews with U.N. inspectors and forced them "to sign documents acknowledging that divulging information is punishable by death."   Not strictly evidence of any wrongdoing.

5.  Powell said Iraq has failed to account for its stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons, including four tons of the nerve gas VX. "We have evidence these weapons existed," Powell said. "What we don\'t have is evidence from Iraq that they have been destroyed or where they are." Show the evidence that they existed, don\'t just refer to it.

6.  "we have more than a decade of proof that he remains determined to acquire nuclear weapons." What proof?  Show it.

Referring to proof isn\'t the same as showing proof.



EXACTLY.
Why doesn\'t the US just say the truth, "we want him out b/c we don\'t like him". That\'s all there is to it. National Security? If they go to war, how is that going to make us any safer? If they do have weapons, and they go to war they\'ll have an even greater reason to use them.  Racer\'s question, Why can\'t Iraq have weapons, and the US can? He had no proof. All accusations, and the "proof" could of come out of anywhere, for all we know those conversations never happened about hiding "stuff".
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline Bossieman
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2003, 01:13:42 AM »
I have watched the news and read alot about the evidence that Powell presented.
Here in Europe the situation is clear.
There is not enough evidence for war.
But most experts here knows its going to be war anyway.
If UN says yes it would be a terrible thing. I would never belive in UN again.
War IMO is never the way to go.

I´m more afraid of Bush than Hussein. Im not alone in this belife.
I think and belive the G.Bush is the most dangerous man on this planet. IMO he is a monster and the world should fear him.

The american people should stand up and tell the world that they are not idiots and will not support war.
But how can that happen when 60% of the US population wants war? What kind of picture does that give us european?

Offline bigrob
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2003, 01:23:50 AM »
this whole situation is trouble. And now this !!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,889679,00.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N Korea threatens US with first strike

Pyongyang asserts right to pre-emptive attack as tensions rise over American build-up

Jonathan Watts in Pyongyang
Thursday February 6, 2003
The Guardian

North Korea is entitled to launch a pre-emptive strike against the US rather than wait until the American military have finished with Iraq, the North\'s foreign ministry told the Guardian yesterday.
Warning that the current nuclear crisis is worse than that in 1994, when the peninsula stood on the brink of oblivion, a ministry spokesman called on Britain to use its influence with Washington to avert war.

"The United States says that after Iraq, we are next", said the deputy director Ri Pyong-gap, "but we have our own countermeasures. Pre-emptive attacks are not the exclusive right of the US."

His comments came on a day when tension was apparent in Pyongyang, with an air-raid drill that cleared the city\'s streets and the North\'s announcement that it has begun full-scale operations at the Yongbyon nuclear plant, the suspected site of weapons-grade plutonium production.

Since reopening the plant in December, the North has kicked out international inspectors and withdrawn from the global treaty to stop the spread of nuclear weapons.

Anxiety in North Korea has been rising since Washington announced plans in the past week to beef up its military strength in the area. Additional bombers will be sent to the region, along with 2,000 extra troops who will serve alongside the 17,000 already stationed on the North-South border. USS Carl Vinson may also be deployed.

According to Pyongyang, the USS Kitty Hawk has already taken up strike position in waters off the peninsula. The US says that reinforcements are needed to warn Pyongyang that it should not try to take advantage of Washington\'s focus on Iraq.

North Korean officials fear the extra forces are the start of the build-up for a full-scale confrontation - a dangerous assumption that could push the peninsula over the edge.

During the last crisis, when the Pentagon planned a surgical strike on the Yongbyon nuclear plant, American generals were convinced that the North would rather launch a surprise attack than wait for a US military build-up.

Mr Ri said today\'s stand-off is more dangerous: "The present situation can be called graver than it was in 1993. It will be touch and go."

The crisis erupted in October when a US envoy to Pyongyang confronted the regime with suspicions that North Korea was engaged in a uranium enrichment programme, in violation of the 1994 agreement which ended the last crisis.

To punish the North, the US cut off supplies of 500,000 tonnes a year of heavy fuel oil, a severe blow to a nation that is desperately short of energy. The north of the country is worst hit but power shortages are apparent even in the capital, where temperatures have fallen as low as -21C recently.

The North claims that the Yongbyon nuclear plant is being used for peaceful purposes. "The US stopped our oil so our country faces a critical shortage of electricity," Mr Ri said. "Our nuclear activities will be confined only to producing electricity."

Both sides say they are committed to finding a diplomatic solution but remain far apart in their demands. Pyongyang wants a non-aggression treaty but Washington has said it will not reward blackmail and has hinted only at a written guarantee of the North\'s security.

Concern about the crisis has prompted South Korea and Japan to pressure the US to take a softer line. In a sign that this may be working, the US deputy secretary of state, Richard Armitage said for the first time yesterday that the US would definitely hold direct talks with the North. "It is just a question of when we do it and how," he told the Senate.

A breakthrough stills looks distant. The European Union plans to send a high-level delegation to North Korea later this month to mediate, but similar envoys from Russia and South Korea achieved little because the North insists that the issue is a bilateral matter with the US.

The North has shown a willingness to open up to other na tions. In an important development, a new road link to South Korea was used for the first time yesterday.

But the North know that the nuclear issue stands in the way of progress, prompting a request that Britain intercede. "The US must sign a non-aggression treaty," Mr Li said.

"I hope that Britain can help to persuade them to do so."

· Japan may deploy two destroyers near North Korea to detect missile launches, the Kyodo news agency reported on yesterday. Quoting unspecified government sources, it said Tokyo believes it increasingly likely that ballistic missiles will be test-fired as part of the North\'s brinkmanship.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Offline ooseven
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2003, 02:59:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Hurricane
World War III here we come... :(


WW3 if we are lucky

i fear that this has not only the potential to spread to other regions, but it could also trigger Death and destruction on a Apocalyptic scale.

this is as good a time as any to move to a luxury Nuclear fall out shelter in  New Zealand. :(

hey at least on the Bright side i could spend my final days in LOTR country :D /.......:(
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Offline Ace
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2003, 03:02:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bossieman
War IMO is never the way to go.

I´m more afraid of Bush than Hussein. Im not alone in this belife.
I think and belive the G.Bush is the most dangerous man on this planet. IMO he is a monster and the world should fear him.

The american people should stand up and tell the world that they are not idiots and will not support war.
But how can that happen when 60% of the US population wants war? What kind of picture does that give us european?


War is never the way to go? Sure about that? Hitler would have appreciated that concept! Thank God there are countries like the US that do not shy away from a problem and wilt like a flower when trouble arises.

Your comment about GWB just shows there is no amount of evidence that would sway your mind about this situation. I think if looked at that statement with a clear mind, you would realize how ridiculous it is to say that you fear GWB more than SH. :rolleyes:

Coredweller,

Proof that Saddam has ignored UN RESOLUTIONS from day one is as clear as the nose on your face.

Now I am going to roll my eyes at all of you who can\'t grasp the situation.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Offline Ace
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2003, 03:05:22 AM »
WW3??

Come on, lets all be rational. What is this whole idea that the sky is falling, the sky is falling? Is it more fun to run around being scared to death?

Ace
« Last Edit: February 06, 2003, 03:43:42 AM by Ace »
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Offline ooseven
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2003, 03:14:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ace
WW3??

Come on, lets all be rational. What is this whole idea that the sky is falling, the sky is falling? Is it more fun to run around be scared to death?

Ace


Ok lets look at it

Point 1
We have Bin Laden and co trying to whip up anti Western feeling, and if a attack on Iraq dose go ahead then the result could be even more suicide fighters to his deranged cause. Remember one of the reasons for his War on the west is due to US & UK forces in Saudi Arabia.

Point 2
Geographical and political conditions are very sensitive through out the region, from Egypt in the far west through to Iraq in the middle and through to Pakistan in the east. The ~Whole region is a potential powder keg waiting for a spark to set things of,.

Point 3
If civil unrest dose start in counties which are very sympatric to the Islamic cause..i.e. Pakistan. We could see a civil war where there where the current president is ousted and a HARD line Islamic extremist group take over .. and guess what Pakistan is Nuclear equipped.
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2003, 03:39:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Good point... I will be back tomorrow morning and discuss this further.  Our European friends in this forum will comment tomorrow as well.  It will be interesting to see how they react.  Anyway good night all.


well for me i was 100% Unimpressed with Mr Powels Powerpoint o death

I have seen more convincing scientific information at “Big Foot sighting” press conferences.


Breakdown

1 ) Recorded conversations

Although the recordings are clammed to be real, they could refer to anything. The whole mode of the conversation is one of where it could be applied to near enough anything (from chemical Weapons to two Iraqi Squaddies talking about hiding porno’s)

2) Satellite images of \'active chemical munitions bunkers\'
yeah not how they used Active and chemical munitions bunkers with the use of 2 “” . these could be a underground chemical weapons plant or it could be a former plant converted to producing non WoMD. And as for still images well they can be made to show just about anything you want to.

3)Scientists banned from interviews
As leaked last year the Scientists are in fear of their lives, just in case the say the wrong thing in front of one of Saddams Goons
There is a big difference from being banned and actually wanting to talk,

4)Mobile biological weapons labs
WTF ?
Has GWB been watching to much X files or Thunderbirds ?
Mobile biological weapons labs would work in theory..if only you have the level of resources of a country like the US or UK and not a Tyranical country which has been under UN sanctions for the past 12 years.
What next from Mr Powell ? Baghdad is really Tracy Island ? and Saddams Palace is Tunderbird 2 ?

5)Nerve gas unaccounted for
yeah note how its VX gas a US weapon, and how it mysteriously was “sold” to Saddam and now has Mysteriously disappeared :rolleyes:

6) Nuclear efforts continue
yeah a 300 page document found in a scientists home.
They have yet to say what the document was.. it could of been a high school text book on nuclear power.

7)Links to terrorism  
this one was the biggest Fook up in his Speack because
a)   there is not one country whith “links” to  al Qaeda
b)   al Qaeda is a hard line Islamic terrorism group who would nothing better than the fall of Saddam’s circleular stance.



Edit

oh and as for the powerpoint on a whole.

I am more Inclined to believe this than any “evidence” about Iraq




Iraq "evidence" = Hear say and stuf they made up to scare us.  
« Last Edit: February 06, 2003, 03:45:25 AM by ooseven »
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Offline Mr. Kennedy
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2003, 04:11:25 AM »
There is no doubt this controversy has reached a global scale, we are trying to keep it from exploding into war.  The United States is not a a belligerent country.  Let me state this, I HATE WAR!
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Offline videoholic

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« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2003, 04:40:43 AM »
Fascinating how whacko people are.  I finally got to watch Powells address last night and I honestly think that in order for you guys to want to go to war, we will need pictures of saddam building the damn missles himself.  Or perhaps launching one at a neighboring company.  More than likely Cyprus because apparently that\'s the country everyone wants.

He is in total breach of the UN for over 8 years now.  If the UN does not vote yes to this war then they have absolutely no back bone.

Korea is another story.  Their leader is a brainwasher of biblical proportions.  Keeping food from his people unless they follow him.  Instilling himself into everyones mind as the greatest leader of all time since day one is a head trip.  I couldn\'t imagine being told all day every day from day one of my life that the sky is red.  The human rights issues alone are enough to blow that country up.  Did any of you watch 60 minutes the other night?  My God it is sickening.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2003, 06:06:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq



EXACTLY.
Why doesn\'t the US just say the truth, "we want him out b/c we don\'t like him". That\'s all there is to it. National Security? If they go to war, how is that going to make us any safer? If they do have weapons, and they go to war they\'ll have an even greater reason to use them.  Racer\'s question, Why can\'t Iraq have weapons, and the US can? He had no proof. All accusations, and the "proof" could of come out of anywhere, for all we know those conversations never happened about hiding "stuff".


Iraqi sympathizers... yes I will use that label for some of you in this thread.  

Iraq has CLEARLY violated UN resolutions.  You have seen the  evidence yet you are blinded by:

1.  Your hatred for GW Bush
2.  Your Anti American sentiments
3.  Your lack of logical reasoning

Colin Powell laid all the evidence that was needed to show he was in violation and the next step in the process would be to oust him from power.  As luckee said, I am worried too that we won\'t actually get him, but in that regard, he won\'t be in power anymore and he will basically be a fugitive.  Whats worse?  Sitting by and letting him stay in power or having him running from country to country hiding in fear?

I just can\'t understand you Core, the evidence is clear.  Are you trying to say he hasn\'t violated UN Resolution 1441?  I am done discussing this with you, because frankly you will never see the truth even if it is "as clear as the nose on your face."  

SirMystiq...  :rolleyes: your post is unfounded bs.  I don\'t think you believe in anything to be honest.  "Why can\'t Iraq have weapons, but the US can?" - Because we are a stable government that has proven for the past 50 years we can handle weapons of mass destruction without using them.  Iraq\'s sole purpose of obtaining these weapons is to:

1.  Destroy Israel
2.  Intimidate its neighbors
3.  Use them against any country (ie. the US) who tries to stop their aggressiveness.

Why don\'t you volunteer to be a human shield.  I know for one, I wouldn\'t miss you. :rolleyes:
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2003, 06:55:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Coredweller
I don\'t think I\'m in the minority either among the population of the US, or the entire world.  I think you\'re in the minority.

 


I\'m in the minority!?!?:laughing:

In a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll of 601 adult Americans who watched Powell\'s speech or heard about what he said, 57 percent said they favored military action against Saddam, 15 percent said they were opposed and 26 percent were unsure.

Before the speech, 50 percent of respondents favored military action, 22 percent were against it and 28 percent were unsure.

The poll had a sampling error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/06/sprj.irq.wrap/index.html
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Offline Coredweller
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« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2003, 09:28:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
I just can\'t understand you Core, the evidence is clear.  Are you trying to say he hasn\'t violated UN Resolution 1441?  I am done discussing this with you, because frankly you will never see the truth even if it is "as clear as the nose on your face"
Before you reply to me again, why don\'t you take the first step of actually reading what I wrote.  I know it sounds crazy, but humor me.  :rolleyes:

I never once said Saddam has not violated the UN Resolution.  I said I wanted to see the proof of it.  I want to see the evidence so that I can fully accept and endorse this war.  In a court of law we can\'t convict someone of murder simply because "we know he did it."  We have to build a case and display the evidence.  It\'s simply a formality that will ensure our cohesiveness and support from the rest of the world.  What\'s so bad about that?  I really really want you to tell me what\'s so bad about that.  You can say it\'s as clear as the nose on my face, but that is still not proof.  

Look at ooseven\'s breakdown of the Powell speech, and explain to me how that\'s hard evidence.  I fully believe that our US government has hard evidence that they\'re withholding, and I want to see it.
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Offline Ace
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2003, 09:37:48 AM »
Quote
I never once said Saddam has not violated the UN Resolution. I said I wanted to see the proof of it.


The one thing we do know about our buddy Saddam is that he has violated the resolutions. When he threw out the inspectors a few years back would be one case of a breach.

Along with all the breaches we also have circumstantial evidence. We seem to have enough. I don\'t think this is a case where we can sit and wait for the French or Germans to get of their collective butts and grow a backbone.

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Offline ooseven
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Powell\'s key points on Iraq
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2003, 09:38:28 AM »
Colin Powell\'s key points added little to no evidence which is already either common knowledge or just hear say.

Put it this way the evidence presented was so insubstantial that it would even stand up in the presence of TV’s Judge Judy, never mind the UN Council.

And we are supposed to believe that our “all wise” leaders :rolleyes: have it in our best interest to launch a pre-emptive strike on the basis of just.

17 empty warheads and a 300 page document and a badly tapped telephone conversation.

Mean while in North Korea the situation is being ignored and getting worse, it was revealed that any attempt by the US to build up forces in the region would be considered a Act of war.

And with well over half of NK’s Fighting force pointed at South Korea.. it almost makes you feel relaxed that your in Safe hands with GWB & BLIAR :rolleyes:

The 2003 GWB / BLIAR Apocalypses tour .. had your Country been bitch slapped yet ?
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