DirectX sh*t > PS2 ???

Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
You still haven\'t explain those gaps


btw. Opengl kicks ass over Direct3d.

true but what can we do. Microsoft runs the world:(

This isn\'t about Xbox being better than PS2 or the EE being better than a Pentium. Its about setting up a framework to try and standardize(probably not the word I\'m looking for) and streamline the game development process to benefit the developers and the gamers.

Originally posted by Paul
1. - New method, old method...who cares. What the consumer wants to see is the end result and developers want to do it in least possible time to save cost. Why spend 10 years to achieve something similar that can be done in 6 months. One rule of development cycle: DO NOT RE-INVENT THE WHEEL.

Ok.....let me repaet myself.......THATS THE RISK PAID WHEN SOMETHING NEW IS INTRODUCED!!!THIS IS TEMPORARY!!THE INDUSTRY ADJUSTS!!!

phew

2. Yes...so there is a lot of untapped power in the PC GPU...who cares...it still looks 20 times better than a PS2 running at 50% of the potential!!! Isn\'t that great!!!

Yawn...u just compared a hardware released in 1999 with a todays PC.Congratulations
 

1. Hello...I believe BurnOut 3 will destined to be multiplatform like BurnOut 2. And FYI, BurnOut 2 on XBOX does look SLIGHTLY better than the PS2 version. Comparing GT4 is null and void...there isn\'t a GT4 on XBOX. How about comparing Splinter Cell, NFS:UG, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good and Evil, Soul Calibur 2 etc etc?? The PS2 falls flat on it\'s face...like it\'s texture. And i found no improvement between GT3 and GT4. The PS2 has reached it\'s limit. But i do agreed the GT series (especially GT3) is really the best racing simulator bar none on any platform...too bad i prefer arcade racers.

Ahm.....Where did I say that you get better results on PS2?I said that the XBOX got a variety of visuals thanks to games developed specifically for PS2.And I wasnt saying that GT4 cant be done on XBOX.I am saying that on PS2 we got great looking titles that vary.On XBOX you dont get that often.Its rare.Unless they release a PS2 port on it.When developers program directly a game on XBOX they porgram on DirectX.

And so, the BEST VERSION of BO3 will likely be on the XBOX...like BurnOut 2...AGAIN. (and the Dobly Digital 5.1 effects in BO2 is just so much better than the PS2...heavy bass and accurate separation!)

Thats NOT the point.Bournout3 is based on tools developed originaly with PS2 on mind.
I am NOT comparing hardware :rolleyes:

2. Huh XBOX DirectX on GF2?? I was referring to the PS2=GF2+. I hope you realized that the XBOX is actually a GF3.5...an enhanced GF3. That is why you get bump mapping and pixel shaders...PS2 can never do this because it\'s in a generation similar to GF2(DX7) which doesn\'t have these features. The gap isn\'t that huge except for better frame rates, minimal jaggies, higher resolution, detail texture with more variety and mind boogling texture that looks 3D thanks to bump mapping....
[/B]

WOW ITS USING A GF 3.5????:eek:
And thats only what we get????????

Look.I am bored of seeing the same graphics over and over and over again only in a different form just becuase they use the same tools=thus similar engines.
On PS2 we may not get  bumb mapping, etc etc.But thats due to haaaaaaardawwwaaaaareeee limitaaaatiooonnnsss!!
I am comparing.........PROGRAMMING METHOOOOOOOODS....phew.

Originally posted by Paul
Let me get this straight.....same effects and similar engines??
Ok...so you\'re IMPRESSED by the same bland texture, frame drops and jaggies in nearly every PS2 games and yet you\'re not impressed by the fantastic and superior graphics in nearly every XBOX game (ex: Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Orta..)...and finally maybe 5 years later, some geek managed to the same level of bump mapping and texture on the PS2 and you\'re gonna claim it\'s the next coming??

My replied:"But i\'ve seen it on the XBOX 5 YEARS AGO!!!!!!"

:clown: :clown: :clown: :clown: :clown:

You still think I am comparing XBOX with PS2.Dont you.I dare you to mention more games that stand out graphically (btw Ninja Gaiden was in development for years.WAIT A GO DIRECT X).I dont have the time to start explaining in paragraphs why japanese developers get these results either.But I ll only do a summary to the surface.Japanese developers that learned games programming in Japan follow the logic "I want to do that and this.Lets try squeeze it out".PC game developers in USA and Europe "This tool enables me to do this and that.So I ll do just that.I want a better tool.I hope they bring one that can do more than what this enables me to do in the present"

Err....Huh?? Just what the heck r u saying?? Outdated PC hardware? U mean XBOX? of course it is....but Ninja Gaiden still looks better than anything similar on the PS2...(Say..Shinobi?? Urrgghhh..)..and can compare to my respectable Raddy ATI 9700 in terms of graphics quality....

Shinobi? *Unicron thinks of an older game with graphics and gameplay that kicks Shinobi\'s ass" :rolleyes:

I can think of more examples

Sonic heroes on PS2 *Unicron thinks of a few other platform games*

Sega=BORED DEVELOPERS


Oh and I see games on XBOX like Ninja Gaiden EVERYWHERE.....NOT!

Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I think the best thing we can all do is ignore UniCorn\'s post.

Who cares? Sony won this generation. End of story.  Why bother debating a couple year old specs?

I hope you realise that I am not comparing SPECS or which console is better.

Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I think the best thing we can all do is ignore UniCorn\'s post.

Who cares? Sony won this generation. End of story.  Why bother debating a couple year old specs?

U r rite. U can\'t argue with people who can\'t accept facts and loves crummy graphics.

I\'m outta here...:yawn:

:rolleyes:

Do you really read what I write?

[clips]

i agree with uni on this...if i\'m understanding this correctly,..let the programmers with the real skills shine instead of everybody having the same tools..yeah the graphics will look great from the door, but after that all games will not improve graphic wise over the next 5 years which is not good.

i like knowing that most of the time when a sequel to a game comes out or a newer game comes out the graphics is updated & the physics of the game is updated as well. to me if you have these standard tools there\'s no room to evolve..this seriously hampers your drive to be creative.

hopefully i\'m understanding the theme of this thread,..cause to be honest, when you cats started throwin\' specs around i just skimmed over those posts.

To a great  degree yes you did catch an idea.The easiness and standards the Direct X offers means more and more developers will appear.Untalented and unskilfull that can program only what the tools enable them to.At the end games are mass produced like music from music programs by many untalented people.No innovation.No variety.No experimenting.Knowledge becomes limited.Tools use the same things used before only with enhanced graphics.Good developers will be lost in an oversupply of untalented employers that only do what the tools enable them to do.
The reason I mentioned XBOX is because it uses old PC technology on which developers still make games using Direct X.(Developers on PC though make games on new PC technology).We see the same engines used again and again and again and the similar games.Its japanese developers that did the most difference on XBOX or developers that worked already on PS2.
Japanese that want to become game developers find things harder in Japan.Most things they are being taught would have been usefull years ago.So they learn things by themselves.First they think what they want to do.And try to achieve that.They arent being taught on tools established everywhere (what happens with Direct X).
And games like Timesplitters2 show some graphical style not seen in other XBOX games.It may not look better than for example DOOM3 but thats not the point.The Burnout series was also developed on tools that were created with PS2 in mind.Whether the port will look better on XBOX is still not the point.
Direct X limits the gaming industry.I hope this will never happen with consoles.Otherwise forget the fame consoles have in the industry.Developers will shift to direct X due to easiness,And since consoles dont evolve technologically every year but every five years, developers wont be supporting consoles since after a couple of years PCs will be already surpassing the consoles.Direct X will do the difference on more powerfull PCs but not in consoles.They can not sgueeze that untapped power left in consoles with direct X.Especially if developers have limited knowldedge and do only what the direct X enables them to.

See what Soulgrind said as well.

Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Could u imagine if all the companies built games based around Directx.  Arghh all the crappy pc ports and vise visa..

Now I probably understand the reason of mm\'s attitude towards the XBOX

Wow Uni your above post made no sense at all dude.

At the end games are mass produced like music from music programs by many untalented people.No innovation.No variety.No experimenting.Knowledge becomes limited.Tools use the same things used before only with enhanced graphics

Obviously you have no Idea what directX is.  And have never even attempted to learn about it. It\'s not easy as your thinking.  Just makes it easier for programmers to program.

No innovation in games?
I assume you did not mean to say that but just forgot to edit your post.

You also know that micosoft is ever improving directX right? Right

That was a simile.I wasnt talking literally.If you want to believe that I ment "its as ****ing easy as making music on a music progam" to satisfy your arguement then FINE

Microsoft doesnt have the motives to improve it for creative purposes.But mostly for simplifying and get great results faster(yeah the same results we see in most games in a long period) so developers will use their own tools only.

Originally posted by Unicron!
The easiness and standards the Direct X offers means more and more developers will appear.Untalented and unskilfull that can program only what the tools enable them to.At the end games are mass produced like music from music programs by many untalented people.No innovation.No variety.No experimenting.Knowledge becomes limited.Tools use the same things used before only with enhanced graphics.Good developers will be lost in an oversupply of untalented employers that only do what the tools enable them to do.

1. You are assuming that all new developers are untalented and not as skilled as established developers.

2. ALL DEVELOPERS PROGRAM WHAT THE TOOLS ENABLE THEM TO. Konami is not going to take the same PS3 hardware that Joe\'s Beginner Games Co. has and make high-speed DVD burners while Joe can only make Pac-Man.

3. Development standards (OpenGL/DirectX/etc.) have been in practice for over a decade. Can you honestly say that in that time period console games have been hands down better than PC Games? For every gameplay innovation that is introduced on the console, the PC has about 5. Why is that?

4. All things considered equal the cream will rise to the top. Game design is not about being able to make the best tools its about being the best WITH the tools. Michaelangelo and I could use the exact same paintbrush/canvas but there is a reason his painting would be better than mine. He has more skill.

5. "Knowledge becomes limited."
Knowledge increases because instead of having to know how to do everything ok you know how to do a few things really well. This is the same reason you go to a specialist and not a general practitioner when you need specific medical help.

Originally posted by Black Samurai
1. You are assuming that all new developers are untalented and not as skilled as established developers.

No I didnt say ALL.I said MORE

2. ALL DEVELOPERS PROGRAM WHAT THE TOOLS ENABLE THEM TO. Konami is not going to take the same PS3 hardware that Joe\'s Beginner Games Co. has and make high-speed DVD burners while Joe can only make Pac-Man.

Cant you please find a better example?With logic??I didnt know Naughty Dog had the tools ready for that engine they use in Jak and Daxter

3. Development standards (OpenGL/DirectX/etc.) have been in practice for over a decade. Can you honestly say that in that time period console games have been hands down better than PC Games? For every gameplay innovation that is introduced on the console, the PC has about 5. Why is that?

Becuase MORE development houses develop on PCs so they produce MORE games in one year fof PCs than with consoles(on which the market is separeted) and because PC hardware evolves faster.Developers dont know how to squeezw more out from the console.Mostly japanese developers do becuase they grew up with consoles.Almost every household has one.Whenever 10 games are produced for a console in a period of time a lot more are being produced on PCs.Check the number of games released on PCs in a certain period of time and the number of games released on consoles.There are more crap and mediocre games on PCs as well.

4. All things considered equal the cream will rise to the top. Game design is not about being able to make the best tools its about being the best WITH the tools. Michaelangelo and I could use the exact same paintbrush/canvas but there is a reason his painting would be better than mine. He has more skill.

Oh you dont seem to get it do you?Developers can develop on the tools if they have the knowledge and know how the hardware works.That developer can achieve more.

As for an artist like Michaelangelo and Da Vinci or Van Gogh they had knowledge.They experimented with different techniques.They had their own talent.Their own expression.Thats why they differed from countless of other artists outhere.These were the talented artists.

5. "Knowledge becomes limited."
Knowledge increases because instead of having to know how to do everything ok you know how to do a few things really well. This is the same reason you go to a specialist and not a general practitioner when you need specific medical help.

If you want to do things really well you must know how things really work

If you are just being taught what each medicine does and the dose someone needs of that medicine it doesnt mean you are a doctor or a pharmacist

Originally posted by Black Samurai

4. All things considered equal the cream will rise to the top. Game design is not about being able to make the best tools its about being the best WITH the tools. Michaelangelo and I could use the exact same paintbrush/canvas but there is a reason his painting would be better than mine. He has more skill.

This is the only one I really wanted to address, since you brought it up.  Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, the best of the best... they INVENTED THEIR OWN TOOLS and IMPROVED ON IDEAS ALREADY AROUND.  Inventing telescopes, new techniques - that\'s what the REAL best of the best do... and in a confined homogenized direcX environment that won\'t be possible.

If you take 4 groups, 2 talented and 2 standard.

1 talented with static tools = good from the get go.  some improvement over time, but not much.

1 talented with evolving tools = Decent but slow starter, most potential of all, no limits on improvings themselves.

1 standard with static tools = nothing special from the get go.  Won\'t get better.

1 standard with evolving tools = crappy start, some improvement, but never going to be anything special.

IMO the entire industry already lacks innovation and willingness to experiment, and by closing of an entire branch/area where they could try new things (tool writing), you are limiting an already self-limited industry.

Couldnt be said better

Originally posted by FatalXception
IMO the entire industry already lacks innovation and willingness to experiment, and by closing of an entire branch/area where they could try new things (tool writing), you are limiting an already self-limited industry.

The tools are still being written. Its not as if Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo is going to ship a physics or graphics engine with their console that everyone has to use. There are companies that are specializing in these things(people like Havok or Meqon) and the large developers will still make their own.

[EDIT]BTW, the tools do not evolve. The hardware evolves and the tools are upgraded accordingly.