Originally posted by GigaShadow
Mystiq -
It is all about the Old Testament with a little New Testament shared by all 3 religions. You are also wrong about historical references as well since that is what Judiaism, Islam and Christianity draw upon - historical writings and teachings.
Simply wrong.
Protestants don\'t worship the same God as Catholics? When did this happen? Do you not know Protestantism spawned from the Catholic Church? You really need to stop posting Mystiq - you are an ignorant ass.
Maybe...before you begin name calling, you should actually read what I wrote. Ad Hominem does not help your cause. And what I have noticed, that is all you people have really brought up against me. Nothing to refute my argument, just my character. Nice!
I said I don\'t recognize, well Catholics do not recognize protestant religions as actualy believers. They profess their belief in God but they don\'t actually do it in the way God wants them to do it. Never said that they didn\'t believe in God. Protestants and Catholics are a complete different subject.
Gman. You keep saying the same thing over and over. Jesus was a prophet. Jesus was the son of God. Jesus was born from Mary. Ok, what does that have to do with Islam and Christianity. That draws no connection, in fact you leave out the most important facts concerning Jesus. Jesus for Christians was the last and CORRECT prophet. Muslims see Muhammed as the last prophet, but also see Jesus and others a prophets. Except, they see muhammed as the actual prophet that God sent to earth. They do not acknowledge Jesus\' divinity, they don\'t see him as part of God. That is a major issue, yet you keep ignoring it. God is a trinity to the Christians, which includes Jesus. God is NOT a trinity to the Muslims. How can that be?
Quote: Mateo el Feo
Sure they\'re not minor but they\'re not major enough to make the God of Abraham into a new God.
The fact that Jesus Christ is God is pretty major. I would support this opinion by the fact that the Quran bothers to explicitly deny this and other facts, such as the Crucifixion.
This is just plain wrong, Monk. Muslims look at both the Old and New Testaments as corrupted texts. In fact, the Quran is quite clear about this fact. Let me know if you would like a sura cited.
Almost, they believe the Old and New testament are not the full truth and that the koran is more right than both the sources.
I\'ll provide the quote from the Quran with a little commentary:
QUOTE (Quran 5.13-15)
But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.
O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
In verse 13, the Quran claims that Jews "altered the words" of the book given to Musa (Moses). In verse 15, the same claim is against the "followers of the Book" (i.e. both Jews and Christians).
According to the Quran, Isa received a book from Allah, not unlike Muhammed\'s "book from Allah." As you can imagine, the things in the New Testament that conflict with the Quran add up really quickly. Because of these conflicts and the advice of Sura 5.15, the message to Muslims (as best as I can understand) is to avoid reading the OT and NT. Of course, it is a great grace when a Muslim is open to reading the Holy Bible, so that he/she can discover God\'s love for him/her.
In contrast to Islam\'s rejection of the Holy Bible, Christians don\'t believe that the Old Testament was corrupted by the Jews. On the contrary, Christians believe that the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ lies hidden in the words of the Old Testament.
And finally, back to the main topic:
The Church documents that have been quoted--apparently in support of the "same God position"--have one curious thing in common. That is: none of these Church documents use the term "same"! I think that it\'s prudent to avoid the term.
Unfortunately, translations of a speech from Pope John Paul II to a crowd of Muslim youth in Morocco (August 19, 1985--link) include the statement that Christians and Muslims worship "the same God." I believe that the original language was French ("Nous croyons au même Dieu"). My own opinions are:
1) Pope John Paul II really made an effort to establish a dialogue with non-Christians, and his language (e.g. "same God") was a product of this effort. While many Muslims appreciate our late pope personally for his conciliatory efforts, Christians still find their religion significantly restricted or even banned in many Muslim countries.
2) The dictionary includes the following four definitions of the adjective "same":
QUOTE
1. Being the very one; identical: the same boat we rented before.
2. Similar in kind, quality, quantity, or degree.
3. Conforming in every detail: according to the same rules as before.
4. Being the one previously mentioned or indicated; aforesaid.
Even if the pope meant definition #2 (i.e. similar) when he spoke, I would suggest that most English speakers hear #1 (i.e. identical). For those who believe that he was using definition #1 (note: such a statement is objectively heretical), the pope\'s own words strike down such a possibility moments later in the speeches as he goes on to explain how the Christian God and Muslim Allah differ.
IMHO, the term "similar" would be a more accurate description of the relationship between the divinities of the two faiths.
My feeling is that the use of phrases like "same God" are really an opportunity for scandalizing the faithful, unless these phrases are carefully explained in light of Catholic Tradition. Since Vatican II, the Vatican has been dealing with the fruits of ambiguous teachings. For a good example of the "clean-up" being done, see Redemptionis Sacramentum from Cardinal Arinze.
I do trust that Pope Benedict XVI will show great care in the words he uses as he engages in dialog with both non-Catholics and non-Christians, and shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world.
---Mateo el Feo
