We are animals just like every one else on this planet!

Ohhh crap!  I just saw a GT3 commercial on TV!!!  There, bossieman!!!  There, in the inherent goodness that is GT3, is my proof that God exists!!!

Originally posted by Lavan
"prove it\'s Y E L L O W".

What are our conditions for proving the existance of God? Should we set up a test experiment - let\'s say we get some poor bastard to jump off a cliff, but before he does so, he prays to God to save him. I think we all know what the outcome of that will be.

When Bossieman said that science can explain everything, he didn\'t mean abstract concepts. He meant say, \'Explain emotions using science\' - and he would say they\'re merely electrical signals in our brain.
 

Good example.

About the cliff thing.  There is a story in the Bible in which the Devil asks Jesus to jump off a cliff, and ask God to save him.  Surely God would save his son.  But Jesus said something to the effect that God had said not to be selfish and request proof, for seeing is not always believing.

The point we are trying to establish is that science, under human limitations, cannot prove everyting (like abstract concepts).  But we have faith in something (God) which can answer some of the questions that science can\'t.


UPDATE:  Altered, this thread started Monday at 3:42 in the afternoon (my time).  For me it\'s 1:27 in the morning of Tuesday, and there has already been over 100 posts!  How is that dying down?  Sure it\'s slowed down from the begining, but that\'s because people (in contrast to me) have lives outside of this forum.  Be patient, and don\'t pass judgement, for it is not in our place to judge.

Originally posted by Lavan
...When Bossieman said that science can explain everything, he didn\'t mean abstract concepts. He meant say, \'Explain emotions using science\' - and he would say they\'re merely electrical signals in our brain.

I\'m playing devil\'s advocate here, since I do believe in God, but I am also a scientist and Bossieman\'s not here right now to reply.

Thanks Lavan, and I understand your points.  First, getting past the "screaming", I think we can all appreciate that sometimes CAPS are just caps meant to stress a point...they don\'t ALWAYS have to insinuate screaming...do they?  Weak point of argument on my part; just appreciate that I did not type in CAPS to scream my point across...only to emphasize.

Bossieman will awake and will be able to defend himself at that time...I don\'t believe he needs a 2nd to take his fight for him.  But thanks for doing so anyway.  I realize these forums are not a "chat" area...I was simply reading down through the posts & replying with my thoughts as I considered them of interest (if to nobody other than my own self-important sense of ego )

Lastly, I don\'t agree with your comment about proving the abstract.  Bossieman was quite specific in earlier posts...he said science can explain everything.  *Every*thing notice how I didn\'t use CAPS that time

Also, since we as humans have free agency, we should expect God to not come and save us when we act incredibly stupid, such as jumping off a cliff. But miracles have been known to happen.

People have been shot and lived, the bullet being stopped by a pocketwatch and buttons and things. You may, Bossieman, say that that is all luck or what not, but I say that it is not, especially when these people go on to do huge things, that has got to be divine intervention.

If you are dumb enough to jump off a cliff or do drugs, etc. you should be expected to pay the consequences. Making people do things to prove God exist is something that just makes me angry. Prove to me that 1 million dollars exist, after all I have never even seen more than a few thousand or so in actual money. prove me a million. Or we will set a flower out in the desert and see if evolution can save it. of course I am being foolish, but anyone who looks for signs everywhere than God exists is none smarter than those statements.


Eric Jacob

Originally posted by Troglodyte
The point we are trying to establish is that science, under human limitations, cannot prove everyting (like abstract concepts).  But we have faith in something (God) which can answer some of the questions that science can\'t.

Amen. I, like most scientists, feel (or know, whichever makes you less upset) that Evolution is fact. Just read my long ass posts in the thread I posted a link to. But just because I believe that we have evolved from Chimpanzees and Bonobos (our closest relatives determined through DNA sequence analysis etc) does not mean that I don\'t believe in God, and that there isn\'t a higher being somewhere who masterminded all of this.

Originally posted by Lavan


Amen. I, like most scientists, feel (or know, whichever makes you less upset) that Evolution is fact. Just read my long ass posts in the thread I posted a link to. But just because I believe that we have evolved from Chimpanzees and Bonobos (our closest relatives determined through DNA sequence analysis etc) does not mean that I don\'t believe in God, and that there isn\'t a higher being somewhere who masterminded all of this.

Do you believe that we all came from one-celled organisms?  I\'m sorry, but I found the link confusing.

I might be able to agree that we may have come from Bonobos.  For all I know Bonobos was the image of God in which we were dreated.  An it could have been the original sin, and Adam being cast out of the Garden of Eden that first sparked a need to evolve into a being that could live in the harsh, new surroundings.

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
If you are dumb enough to jump off a cliff or do drugs, etc. you should be expected to pay the consequences. Making people do things to prove God exist is something that just makes me angry. Prove to me that 1 million dollars exist, after all I have never even seen more than a few thousand or so in actual money. prove me a million. Or we will set a flower out in the desert and see if evolution can save it. of course I am being foolish, but anyone who looks for signs everywhere than God exists is none smarter than those statements.

[Just a side note] We CAN prove that Evolution has occured - just read the thread that I posted before. I just want to make that clear to people - evolution is NOT an abstract concept. If anyone wants to discuss that, just read ALL the posts in that thread where I give multiple examples and a brief (but still in depth) overview of the Modern Synthesis.

If you don\'t want to believe evolution then you shouldn\'t believe in medicine and biological sciences - all are founded and proven upon the same principles. If the mountain of evidence supporting evolution through natural selection is bs, then every medicine you take is a placebo.

[btw, this wasn\'t directed at you Eric, just a general rant that I wanted to get off my chest before I hit the sack]

Originally posted by Troglodyte


Do you believe that we all came from one-celled organisms?  I\'m sorry, but I found the link confusing.

I might be able to agree that we may have come from Bonobos.  For all I know Bonobos was the image of God in which we were dreated.  An it could have been the original sin, and Adam being cast out of the Garden of Eden that first sparked a need to evolve into a being that could live in the harsh, new surroundings.

Just look for every one of my posts starting on page three of that thread (it really starts near the bottom of page 2) and read - even if you disagree wholeheartedly (which is fine), it will at least give you a greater insight into the science, and will definately clear up many of the misconceptions that people have about the modern synthesis and evolution - it\'s far too much for me to cut and paste here.

SonyFan and I had a really good dialogue there, and he comes up with a lot of counterpoints against evolution that I respond to in depth , so if you\'re interested it\'s a good read.

EDIT: I\'m off to bed, \'nite all. Bossieman, you have a lot of retorts to make!

Originally posted by Sublimesjg
hmmm i don\'t seem to recall Dinosaurs or Neaderthals in the book of Genesis do you?

There are dinosaurs in the bible. its gonna take me awhile to find it.

Originally posted by Lavan


Just look for every one of my posts starting on page three of that thread (it really starts near the bottom of page 2) and read - even if you disagree wholeheartedly (which is fine), it will at least give you a greater insight into the science, and will definately clear up many of the misconceptions that people have about the modern synthesis and evolution - it\'s far too much for me to cut and paste here.

SonyFan and I had a really good dialogue there, and he comes up with a lot of counterpoints against evolution that I respond to in depth , so if you\'re interested it\'s a good read.

Wow!  I just skimmed through most of it.  I would love to talk to you about this in person. . .  it\'s facinating!

To get off-topic for just one second:

"b)Vesitgal structures - eg. human appendix - useless for us, but is neccesary for orangutans."

I\'m so curious I could pop!  What do the Oranguatans use the appendix for?  What does it do for them?

Otherwise I don\'t have any more questions about your evolutionary knowledge.

Majin Prince - put down the NIV Bible or the Comic Book Bible published through the catholic church and come to your senses, dinosaurs are not in the bible!

Lavan - I never said I don\'t believe in evolution. Never. I just don\'t want to get into it because, like you have done, a great hole would be digged for me to get out of believing in both God and evolution. You have done a fine job of getting out of the whole, but I would rather not get my hands dirty since my feelings lie with religion way more than with Science, I argue that point. I do believe in limited evolution as in adaptation and strong to survive, but I, in no way, believe we developed from single cell organisms or horses or monkeys, etc. I just can\'t believe it.

How might evolution create the human eye? That is one question that makes me doubt evolution involving current living things.

My personal belief on dinosaurs go something like this:

God didn\'t have to create man in 6 days, as it has been said that 1 minute of our time equals thousands of years for God, why can\'t it be different? While God was creating the earth and the heavens he could\'ve made the dinosaurs and other creatures and then decided they weren\'t suitable to live among humans, like Himself, as they would harm the humans surely and do way more harm then good. So God killed them off. Of course I do not state this as fact, I do say that there are things about this world and universe that we will not understand until we die, and perhaps not even then. That is that which makes God God and us humans.


Eric Jacob

May I ask Altered Beast, what is meant by your comment about catholics in your last post

The catholic church is quick to accomadate new blood as long as it brings in more money.

The New International Version of the Bible is basically just dumbed up and reworded for simple idiots who dont know what Thee, Thine, and Thy are. Also, they have a picture bible that reads like a comic book fro kids, which also teaches kids exactly ZERO respect for Heavenly Father.

Believe it or not, there are churches out there that don\'t pay their ministers/priests/bishops/reverends/etc.!! Those churches weren\'t found on greed, but on faith. Take Martin Luther for example (no I am not Lutheran, I believe in a different church). He was sick and tired of how corrupt the Catholic church was and how it changed everything, so he nailed a little thing up against a church door. He didn\'t touch on half of the problems of the catholic church.

The Pope, a man supposedly called of God, has been excommunicated TWICE! Once because he was found out to be a woman (not allowed). You know the church people found out that the pope was a woman? she got pregnant (must be celibate). Doesn\'t sound like called of God to me.

It is common practice to tip the Priest at a  family member\'s baptism $50 in my area. and church members find it odd when you don\'t! Don\'t you find it odd that the priest, doing the Lord\'s work, expects to get paid for it, not doing it merely as service?

I could go on and on, but I think I have offended enough in this topic.

Eric Jacob

OOOOH!!!!!!
I love a good religious debate.
For starters, Im an Atheist.

For all you who believe in the bible.
Answer me this, If before he died, Hitler asked Jesus to save his soul, would he?
And on the other side of the coin,
Is Gandhi now burning in hell?
And if so, then how can god be a Diety that strives for goodness. If you answered yes to both questions, then God isnt striving for people to be good, Hes just trying to win a popularity contest.
Also, I agree that RELIGION not GOD, is one of the most deadly and dangerous forces on this planet. Look at the crusades, it might have been started by the Pope feeling threatened, but it was the INSTITUTION that is religion that gave him the weight to GUILT people into fighting for him.
The Pope didnt fight the muslims, people who believed the catholic religion did.
And if that example is too archaic for you then a modern one. The balkens. Ethnic albanians and serbians are fighting and killing each other every day because of RELIGION!
Every day Jews and Muslims are killing each other over RELIGION!
Not because they all do drugs or are gangsters.
You say believing in god gives YOU a sense of peace?
It gives THEM a reason to kill thier neighbor.

And the Bible?
Dont even start.
The bible is a book full of hate mongering.
Kill gays
Kill people who commit beastilaty(not that I condone that, its just that it states that.)
Men have the permission to beat thier wife if they dont do what they say.
The bible bleeds intolerance and thats it.

Also, about those scientists that were killed in the middle ages, they werent lynched by a mob or stoned, but taken by the CHURCH and put on trial for blasphemy against the "good" book, and when they were found guilty BY THE CHURCH, they were burned, kinda like what happened t jesus.Aint that funny.

Believe in god.
I have no problem with that, but keep your god out of MY life.
I cant stand when bible thumpers light into me with your going to hell ****.

Just because I\'m catholic does that make me evil?

you make catholics out to be the root of everything that ever went wrong, just because one catholic man killed another man because of his religion doesnt mean the catholic religion condoned it, and there is a reason for the priest getting payed, if hes devoting his whole life to god there has to be a way for him to afford things, he needs food just like any other man, and there is no time to work a job