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Author Topic: PS2 : for worse times...  (Read 7007 times)

Offline Watchdog
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2001, 03:46:00 PM »
They are dominating the charts because there is no competition.
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Offline wiseboy
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2001, 03:46:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Watchdog
SSX was good.



Good?! Good?! My man listen to what my girl Elise has to say.....    :D :D :D
\"Sweeter than candy!\"

Elise
SSX

Offline IronFist
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2001, 03:51:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Watchdog
They are dominating the charts because there is no competition.

That wasn\'t what datamage was saying.  He was proving you wrong about the developers being frusterated with PS2 game sales.  Try to not twist things around like this.
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Offline Ryu
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2001, 04:22:24 PM »
Whoa... I can\'t believe I ignored this thread.  I\'ll be back later to deal with you Watchdog. ;)  Stupid English essays suck monkey crotch.

Before I do return, I do encourage you to read two topics before responding any further.  The first is about the opinions and views of the casual gamer vs the hardcore gamers.  That thread can be found here: http://194.47.16.181/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12798

Secondly, I\'d like you to read the thread below that Ironfist posted awhile back dealing with the debate that is present here: Graphics.  Please, read it in its entirety.   http://194.47.16.181/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13628

I\'ll be back later tonight to respond more specifically to any new comments made.
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Offline wiseboy
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What doesn\'t kill the PS2 only makes it stronger??? We\'ll see.....
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2001, 04:55:07 PM »
I think the Ps2 is doing ok (for now :confused: ) I just picked up the latest official playstation mag which came with a playstation 2 demo disc. Included on this disc was a demo version of a game called ICO :eek: All I gotta say is that I can\'t wait for this game. I played a level in that game that showed off a windmill near a big pool of water which included beautiful reflections of the scenery. It\'s getting better (ps2 graphics). But not just the graphics. The game includes some cool features and gameplay.

But I agree. How much patience do developers have left? I\'m sorry, but it\'s only logical and understandable for a developer to want to move to a console that may be easier to develop for and achieve the same quality graphics (if not better!) instead of going through the blood, sweat and tears the ps2 brings.

IMO, Resident Evil leaving the PS2 is not a big loss for the PS2 but a huge gain for the Gamecube IMO. I don\'t care how old the series is because to move a highly respected game/series to a console because you think the console (GC) can achieve the vision you\'re looking for says a lot.

It\'s going to be interesting to see how well the PS2 holds up maybe 8-12 months after the other consoles are released. I mean will developers be able to tap the PS2\'s full potential after this time period? Because by this time the GC and Xbox graphics might be..... :eek: :eek: :eek:
\"Sweeter than candy!\"

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Offline Falcon4
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2001, 05:14:12 PM »
i think that the developers will flock to the place where the fanbase appeals to their game. where they will make the most money.

but you must realize, that if gamecube and z boz are soo much easier to develop for, they must be able to get more out of the system earlier. many developers are still workign with the ps2 to try and tap its ower potential.

but no doubt, the x box\'s graphics will surpass the ps2\'s.
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Offline IronFist
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2001, 05:40:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wiseboy
But I agree. How much patience do developers have left? I\'m sorry, but it\'s only logical and understandable for a developer to want to move to a console that may be easier to develop for and achieve the same quality graphics (if not better!) instead of going through the blood, sweat and tears the ps2 brings.

IMO, patience has nothing to do with it.  Like Falcon4 said, "developers will flock to the place where the fanbase appeals to their game."  The developers won\'t give up on the PS2 for one reason and one reason only, its 15 million userbase.  If the PS2 was released at the same time as the NGC and Xbox, it wouldn\'t have a chance and would end up like the Saturn (a dead system with lots and lots of untapped power).  But because it has such a huge userbase already, developers know it is worth the effort to make games for the PS2.
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Offline Watchdog
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2001, 08:15:19 PM »
No, the PS2 isn\'t going to die.  That\'s never going to happen.  It\'s the games.  Where they go first, how much better they look and perform, how much quicker they come out.

Let\'s just talk facts then, not opinions.

Developers have never sang the praises of the PS2 hardware, this is the opposite case for the GC and xbox.

The GC almost certainly will have a user base in the multimillions.  The xbox too should have a healthy user base.  Two to three years from now if two of the consoles have comparable units sold (which isn\'t a fact, but it is likely), where are the developers going to go then?  Are they going to work harder and put extra hours into producing a PS2 game or are they going to go to a platform that is more hospitable and get their game out faster so they can make more money and start a new project sooner?  

What is the casual consumer going to think when he/she sees the same game running on multiple platforms and sees that the PS2 doesn\'t look as good.  What happens when PS2 owners see that their firend\'s xbox/gc looks better or worse yet, has games that aren\'t possible on the PS2?  Loyalties will change and rival numbers will rise.  The casual gamer buys because of graphics.  He/she doesn\'t know that developers are finding it difficult to tap the power of the PS2.  And therefore wouldn\'t be inclined to wait and see like so many here are.

Really, after the first six months of a consoles life, it\'s all about the casual gamer.  Hardcore fans already have the system of their choice and have no power.  If one of the other two (GC xbox) are successful, the PS2 is in trouble.

Munch is gone, RE is gone, ID is gone on record saying the new Quake and Wolfenstein aren\'t possible on the PS2 hardware.  Likewise Epic has said that the new Unreal game would have to cut some effect to fit it within teh PS2\'s memory limitations. Blizzard is looking at consoles development now since the xbox has become a reality (pretty safe bet it\'ll be the xbox since no word of anything before this).  This is a trend, and these are big companies with lots of power and fans speaking out in public about the limitations of the PS2 hardware.

All this talk about launch games, and sell through is all moot.  This year will prove nothing in terms of this argument.  It\'s two to three years down the road (when the real money is made for console manufacterers) that matters.

The PS2 is slipping--that much is undeniable.  How far is what we are debating here.  It\'s time to hedge our bets.

I\'ve taken this argument much further than I had ever intended.  I own a PS2 and obviously want to see it succeed, but no one here is really debating the issue.  Everyone is saying the PS2 is fine.  I\'m quite happy with it.  The graphics are nice enough for me.  ETC.  It\'s not all fine and good in the land of Sony.  They are feeling the heat and have lashed out against MS (pretty telling how secure they really feel at the top).

If people keep ignoring the issue and maintain this kind of apathy then why would Sony do anythign differently the next time?
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Offline IronFist
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2001, 10:43:05 PM »
With the new developement tools going out to the PS2 developers, the PS2 will be a lot easier to program for.  For example, Vector C is a new tool for programmers to use to be able to use a lot more of what the PS2 has to offer a lot easier.  Here is the Press Release and More Info about Vector C. (thank you Fastson for bringing this info to these forums)  In two years from now, the Xbox, NGC, and PS2 will probably be on equal grounds in terms of programming simplicity.  The programming difficulty won\'t be a factor then.

Do not underestimate the power of the PS2.  It has a very good chance to match or surpass the Xbox\'s and NGC\'s graphics. (but again, graphics is all an oppinion thing anyways.  Thank you Ryu for posting those two links in your post.  If anyone hasn\'t read those two links, do it now.)  I\'m sure you\'ve heard this many times, but there is a lot of untapped power still left in the PS2.  EA has discovered how to do in game surround sound, which until a couple weeks ago, was thought impossible.  Source: Click Me.  One quote that I absolutely love from that last link is, "Is it just me, or does PS2 just keep proving all its critics wrong over time?" :)

You have seen what the PS2 is capable of with Jak and Daxter.  You said it yourself, "I chang my stance from totally not interested to curiously optimistic." (Well, it\'s a start :)  You will soon be converted into a JAD lover. :))  Just imagine what the games will look like in two years.  Jak and Daxter quality graphics will be a lot more common, and the great developers now will be surpassing JAD graphics then.  I don\'t think that Sony has anything to worry about right now or two years from now.

BTW, here are the first results of "Was TTT a disappointment?" coming from the most hardcore players in the world:
YES: |||||||||||||||||||||||||  (0 votes)
NO!:  |||||||||||||||||||||||||  (7 votes)
It looks like the hardcore do like TTT.  So you can put your "the game was a dissappointment in the eyes of most hardcore tekken players" argument to rest.  Go here to see the results for yourself.
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Offline BizioEE

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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2001, 01:38:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Watchdog
* No, the PS2 isn\'t going to die.  That\'s never going to happen.  It\'s the games......  *

Let\'s just talk facts then, not opinions.


so...even the statement "GC and X-Box will never die" is only an opinion...and not a fact...because you can enumerate a lot of motivations why both will survive and I could easy destroy them...exactly like you could do in the case of the fate of PS2 ...right?  After all,we\'re making opinions,assumptions,conjectures...right?

Quote

Developers have never sang the praises of the PS2 hardware, this is the opposite case for the GC and xbox.


Some don\'t dislike PS2 hardware...some said that developing for PS2 will get easier and easier...some said "the more we develop for this machine...the more we like it"...and some "with 2 extra years developing for PS2 will get as easy as developing for PSone"...

Quote
The GC almost certainly will have a user base in the multimillions.  The xbox too should have a healthy user base.  Two to three years from now if two of the consoles have comparable units sold (which isn\'t a fact, but it is likely), where are the developers going to go then?


PS2 installed base before the release of FFX = 14.95 Millions(give me a break if I\'m wrong)...and I\'m confident that Sony will release 30 Millions Units by the holiday season...so...when the price will drop and drop...great games will come...and people will find games at 5$ on all the Moroccan\'s stalls(you forced me to say that)...don\'t you think the user-base will rise more and more...and with 2,3 extra years from now on...to make up for the delay could be impossible for both X-Box and GC...it\'s only another point of view...right?

Quote

  Are they going to work harder and put extra hours into producing a PS2 game or are they going to go to a platform that is more hospitable and get their game out faster so they can make more money and start a new project sooner?


You\'ve got a good point...but it\'s not the whole story...look at EA...developers are interested in making money...and I think most of them won\'t waste their time to fully push every piece of hardware...rather they will develop similar versions with slight difference for all the consoles to not renounce any huge installed user-base...for example...PS2\'s one!

Quote

What is the casual consumer going to think when he/she sees the same game running on multiple platforms and sees that the PS2 doesn\'t look as good.  What happens when PS2 owners see that their firend\'s xbox/gc looks better or worse yet, has games that aren\'t possible on the PS2?


Well...the same PSX owners thought looking at N64 games...
 
Quote

If people keep ignoring the issue and maintain this kind of apathy then why would Sony do anythign differently the next time?


I\'m not so sure about the graphics-issue...right now I don\'t know if developers will be able to use the MPG2-textures compression(8:1,10:1) in game...let\'s wait and see....
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Offline Watchdog
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »
Bah, net polls mean nothing at all.  It\'s a game with nothign new, but like I said in my last post, that isn\'t going to affect anything anymore.

I never said the xbox or GC will never die and I admitted that sales estimates were conjecture.

Releasing dev tools does make it easier to develop for a system, but it also limits the amount of power that you can tap from it.  Saturn had an assortment of tools that skilled devs didn\'t use.  DC had the MS os that produced mostly crappy games.  Dev tools are an imperfect solution to a complex problem.

Also, you make a fairly obvious conclusion that

"In two years from now, the Xbox, NGC, and PS2 will probably be on equal grounds in terms of programming simplicity. The programming difficulty won\'t be a factor then."

But this isn\'t the case.   Right now dev teams are struggling to figure out ways to get their through put  to respectable levels.  But even when the devs figure it out, a new game is a new game, they are like organic entities in a way--unique challenges with unique solutions.  Therefore, while the prior knowledge will definately help it will not solve their problems.  Also, because of the untraditional archetecture of the PS2 devs have to rethink every project that they do.  With conventional systems, coding for multiple consoles is relatively simple but the PS2 will take a very time intensive process of rethinking.  Even when all this is done, it still will take longer for teams to publish their games because of the obsticles of the PS2 hardware.

And let\'s not even speak of the RAM issues...Also, the xbox has a harddrive (for better or worse) and a modem and four joystick ports.  These are costly addons that we have to purchase right now.  Only a fraction the game community buy addons (I forget the figure but it is miniscule) let alone extra joysticks!  Therfore are these addons aren\'t always going to be considered by devs when developing a game.  Also, if the deadline is coming on a game that wanted to have harddrive support, what do you think will get cut?  xbox devs do not have this concern because it is prepackaged.

Right now devs are onboard because really the PS2 is the only viable system , but like I said if either of the other systems succeed (and it is reasonable to suggest that at least one will) the PS2 will face a tough challenge.  Stick it out with the PS2 or go with a platform that offers a familiar architecture so you can spend less time fighting with the metal and more time realizing your vision.

You make a valid point that EA, and other companies (SEGA, Acclaim, etc) will make games for all systems, but the problem is that small innovativestudios cannot always afford to publish to all platforms.  Who are they going to chose (disregarding buyouts)?

I would also say, in rebuttal of the point that the N64\'s graphics didn\'t lure potential psx owners with a couple points.

N64 had very little 3rd party support (equalling far fewer games).
N64\'s graphics were really not that great.  Sure it was smoother looking, but the draw distance and texture detail was quite bad.

Neither of these points will be valid concerning the GC and xbox.

It\'s a slippery slope for the PS2 and it only goes one way for Sony.  Sony will have to get lucky and really pull up their socks if they want to remain the clear favourite.
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Offline fastson
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2001, 12:39:44 PM »
Ps2 hard to program for? No more!

Press Release
Details
\"Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed\"
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Offline Falcon4
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2001, 12:46:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fastson
Ps2 hard to program for? No more!

Press Release
Details

\'
that is very cool fastson. the article is amazing i hope it works as well as it says. if they do that, they are talking about boosing processor speed and capability.

i wonder what they will be able to do with that.

would it surpass gt3 and MGS2?

if so, holy crap.
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Offline fastson
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2001, 01:04:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Falcon4

\'
that is very cool fastson. the article is amazing i hope it works as well as it says. if they do that, they are talking about boosing processor speed and capability.

i wonder what they will be able to do with that.

would it surpass gt3 and MGS2?

if so, holy crap.


Remember GT3 and MGS2 are 2nd generation titles :)
Yes I would expect a pretty big leap..

Cuz NO ONE can max out a console one their first try :)
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Offline Watchdog
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PS2 : for worse times...
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2001, 01:55:54 PM »
That\'s a press release.  It supposed to promise everything.  The real world is a different matter entirely.
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