Something I pondered...

Originally posted by Troglodyte
I totally agree with  FatalXception, my next endevor spiritually is to learn more about western religions, which I\'ll be doing in May at school.

You totally agree with FatalXception, yet later on you call the Book of Mormon crap.  Even FatalXception found some good in it, so what you said was a little inconsistent.

I have a feeling that your bias against us Mormons is causing you to read the Book of Mormon with the intention of finding things wrong with it instead of actually reading it with an open mind and giving it a chance.  It seems to me (of course, correct me if I\'m wrong) that you have decided the BOM is false even before starting to read it.  Also, if you don\'t mind me asking, to what extent have you read it?  Earlier in this thread you said that you "looked through the Book of Mormon."  Now you are saying that you have read it.  To me those are two very different things.

I do not understand how you can read multiple bibles, which often contradict each other and even sometimes themselves, and still believe in them and follow their council, yet you think the BOM is complete crap.  The Book of Mormon is "another testament of Christ"; another book containing words from old prophets of God that supports the Bible and has a lot of the same content as the Bible does.  How can one be crap and the others be true when they contain a lot of the same things?  Do the differences in the different Bible\'s make you think they are crap?  So why would the BOM be any different?  I\'m sure you can understand my confusion.  Also, do you believe in the LDS Bible (the KJV Bible with the Joseph Smith Translations), or do you think that is crap too?

Nobody can be 100% sure, it\'s not humanly possible.

I am 100% sure, so yes, it is humanly possible.


Project86:

Originally posted by project86 up at the top of this page
We all think differently, that I have learned. I also can say that many of these people impressed me by not bashing people for what they believe. But on the other side of it, there was a lot of "richard-heads" out there that couldn’t look past there own nose to see another point of view.

I can\'t help but think that "richard-heads" comment was directed at me, but only because of how Troglodyte has been portraying me ("Holier than thou attitude") and my beliefs ("most selfish, self-centered religion out there.")  I think this deserves some clarification.

First of all, I have not bashed anyone for their beliefs.  As a matter of fact, I have been encouraging other people to post their beliefs so I could get a better understanding of not only who they are, but of what different people around the world believe in.  I sometimes ask specific things about other peoples\' views on things, but other times, I just post things about my beliefs in hopes of someone replying with their views on the matter, and in turn, having a discussion about it.  Unfortunately, things do not always go exactly as planned.  Instead of people responding to my beliefs with beliefs of their own (not everyone, but some people in the last couple of pages), they just insulted them.

The same thing happened with RACER earlier in this thread.  He was laughed at for having different beliefs as the majority of posters at that time, which unfortunately made him leave.

And I can see other people\'s point of view, but that doesn\'t mean I have to accept them.  In fact, almost everybody here has posted their point of view, from the people who think religion as a whole is a crock, to the people who believe in religious ideas but not in religion itself, to the people who have found what they believe to be the only true religion, and just because they are not accepting other people\'s beliefs does not mean that they are not seeing them.

And going along with your general statement about how this thread has come a long way since it started, I want to thank everyone who has been participating so far (Yes, even Troglodyte even though he hates my religion).  The wealth of knowledge I have obtained because of this thread is immeasurable.  Not only did I learn things about other people\'s beliefs in this thread, but this thread caused me to go out and look around the internet for even more information.  If it wasn\'t for this thread, I probably never would have known about how our church is hated by so many people (I\'m talking about the anti-Mormon sites on the web), and would have been shocked when I went on my mission.  But now thanks to you guys I feel more prepared than I ever could have if this thread didn\'t exist.  Thank you, everyone!  I hope this thread continues to grow with more ideas and perspectives, and I hope that the size of this thread doesn\'t scare off newcomers.

IronFist

Originally posted by IronFist
I have a feeling that your bias against us Mormons is causing you to read the Book of Mormon with the intention of finding things wrong with it instead of actually reading it with an open mind and giving it a chance. It seems to me (of course, correct me if I\'m wrong) that you have decided the BOM is false even before starting to read it. Also, if you don\'t mind me asking, to what extent have you read it? Earlier in this thread you said that you "looked through the Book of Mormon." Now you are saying that you have read it. To me those are two very different things.

I do not understand how you can read multiple bibles, which often contradict each other and even sometimes themselves, and still believe in them and follow their council, yet you think the BOM is complete crap. The Book of Mormon is "another testament of Christ"; another book containing words from old prophets of God that supports the Bible and has a lot of the same content as the Bible does. How can one be crap and the others be true when they contain a lot of the same things? Do the differences in the different Bible\'s make you think they are crap? So why would the BOM be any different? I\'m sure you can understand my confusion. Also, do you believe in the LDS Bible (the KJV Bible with the Joseph Smith Translations), or do you think that is crap too?

I read the Book of Mormon over Christmas break, back in the day when I was really interested in learning about Mormonism, see the other religion thread for reference.  I "read" it without bias.  I wasn\'t able to read all of it, so I went to some Mormon sites for some "highlights."

The different versions of the Bible do not contradict themselves.  They are simply different specific-word translations.  This is why I can\'t understand why you are so gun-ho over the KJV.  I have a Mormon friend that said that her church might as well use NIV, but it\'s just personal preference, and easier if the entire church uses a "standard" version.  That doesn\'t mean she won\'t even consider different word-translations.

Please don\'t assume.  I tried not to read the Book of Mormon without bias, and I never said that the KJV was crap, I said the Book of Mormon is crap.  As for the LDS KJV, that adds/takes away messages from the original scrolls.  That\'s not cool.

I don\'t hate Mormonism, I hate terrorists.  I just think that Mormons have the most whacked-out religion.

[GmanJoe]

From NIH :

For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24.

And for the record, religious folks who adhere to their religion are less likely to commit suicides. Yet the states surrounding Utah also have a high rate (although Nevada I can understand with all those Casinos breaking people\'s bank accounts ), if you noticed from your own source, ironfist. Quite possibly, many of them are Mormons. Though I do\'t have the time to look for the statistics right now.

And yes, Joseph Smith did make up his own Bible. Unlike the real Bible, there are no evidence to back up Joe Smith\'s claim to authenticate his Book of Mormons. What? Gold plates given to him by angels? Hehehe....are we allowed to see that? Gold plates. Wow. The Dead Sea Scrolls was written on sheep skin scrolls and found by a sheppard last century in a cave. Scientifically dated to around the time of Christ. Some after and some before. Plus, there are other cultures who have written history that coincide with what was written in the Bible. Example : Pilot....Roman prefict of Israel. His stone tablet was found and confirmed to be authentic. His name was mentioned in the Bible, of course, you know that. But what about the Book of Mormons? What have you got to confirm its authenticity?

Nothing.

Faith? We all have faith. I\'m religious too. But mainly coz historical facts do support some of the things that happened in the Bible. Even the description of Goliath\'s battle with David, there are some subtle clues to Goliath\'s medical condition : an enlarged pituitary gland that led to gigantism. The enlarged glang puts pressure on the frontal lobe of the brain and eyes, causing him to have tunnel vision. That explains why David was able to sneak in so close to Goliath, by not walking within direct sight of Goliath. The single rock to his head killed him, why? The enlarged pituitary gland had the brain under a lot of pressure so when the stone struck Goliath\'s skull, the impact probably cause severe hemmorage to the brain.

Let\'s see you come up with facts that support your Book of Mormons.

that\'s not possible, GManJoe, anything I would throw in there that has any historical record would be thrown back at me with something to the effect of "Yeah, Joe Smith read that in some newspaper and threw it in the Book of Mormons, hahahaha, try again, Mormons." or if I said something with historical record that is also in the Bible, you would say "Joe Smith just read the real Bible and put it in the Book of Mormons, hahahaha! try again!"

You aren\'t looking for a real reason, nor a real answer to your question. Nothing I personally, nor IronFist could do would change yours or Troglodytes, or anyone else\'s for that matter opinions on Mormons.

We aren\'t Holier-than-thou elitists, although you may feel that way talking to many sheltered Mormons. We have the truth of the gospel and would like to share that with everyone in the world. If we were Holier than thou, we wouldn\'t try to convert everyone or teach everyone in the world, which we try to do, we would just sit back and feel sorry and condemn everyone forever, which we don\'t.

Holier than thou? Gimme a Break, our churches entire missionary philosophy is based around teaching people what we know to be true.


Eric Jacob

Alright, here\'s what i think. I believe in god and such, but i don\'t have a certain religion. I think people take this stuff too far and should just live their life and have fun. Try not to get too caught up in religion.

[GmanJoe]

Well, at least no one can say I go by blind faith alone. I\'m faithful...but I do seek answers to my own questions. Now...if I knew the location of the Holy Grail, Garden of Eden and the Ark of the Covenant.......gotta get my leather hat and whip!

PSSST! The Ark of the Covenant is probably in Etheopia! But don\'t tell anyone!

PS There ~was~ a Santa Claus. But he was an old Bishop who was crucified by the Romans in what is now Turkey. His name was Nicholas. The Germans call him Sinter Klause. So now you know!

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Nothing I personally, nor IronFist could do would change yours or Troglodytes, or anyone else\'s for that matter opinions on Mormons.

Likewise, nothing we say will change your mind.   Religion really does start wars, even tiny internet ones.

Oh, and it\'s Ethiopia GmanJoe.

[Titan]

Originally posted by IronFist

And he is the one who was resurrected after three days and will come again in the second coming.

Damn, I don\'t go on over the weekend and it is up to page 19. Damn. TO reply to Iron\'s reply, don\'t you believe Christ came a second time to the Aztechs? I remember you said so.

[GmanJoe]

Originally posted by Troglodyte


Likewise, nothing we say will change your mind.   Religion really does start wars, even tiny internet ones.

Oh, and it\'s Ethiopia GmanJoe.

Oops. I mithpelled.

Humans start wars. Religion is like patriotism or nationalism. They\'re good....until man\'s greed and arrogance takes over. Hell....look at those soccer games. The fans will kill opposing fans over a simple game of soccer. Is soccer bad? No.

GmanJoe

And yes, Joseph Smith did make up his own Bible. Unlike the real Bible, there are no evidence to back up Joe Smith\'s claim to authenticate his Book of Mormons. What? Gold plates given to him by angels? Hehehe....are we allowed to see that? Gold plates. Wow. The Dead Sea Scrolls was written on sheep skin scrolls and found by a sheppard last century in a cave. Scientifically dated to around the time of Christ. Some after and some before. Plus, there are other cultures who have written history that coincide with what was written in the Bible. Example : Pilot....Roman prefict of Israel. His stone tablet was found and confirmed to be authentic. His name was mentioned in the Bible, of course, you know that. But what about the Book of Mormons? What have you got to confirm its authenticity?

So you believe in the bible based on evidences of its truthfulness instead of faith?  I thought all religions were based on faith instead of proof.

We do have the Holy Ghost who confirms the Book of Mormon\'s truthfulness, but most likely you won\'t give that a chance.  So here are some things that could be used as proof that the Book of Mormon is real.

• "The Land of Jerusalem" - A fatal blunder??
  (This is just a summary of what the site says.  Click on the link at the end of my post to read more about "The Land of Jerusalem.")
  
  The Book of Mormon states that Jesus was born in "The Land of Jerusalem."  Because we all know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, Joseph Smith is obviously an idiot, right?  Not quite.  This phrase that not even the Bible contains has recently been found as an accurate phrase from the time around Christ.  This exact phrase was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as some other recently discovered ancient documents.  It means the area around Jerusalem, including Bethlehem.
  
  Now ask yourself, how could someone in the 1820s know that weird detail unless they were translating from an ancient Book that was given to him by God?  He obviously could not have gotten that info anywhere else, because it was not discovered on this world until recently.
  
  
• Writing on Metal Plates?  And Title pages at the end instead of the beginning?
  This is a direct quote from the link below:
  

  Absolutely laughable in 1830, now not only well established as an ancient practice, but as a particularly significant ancient practice in the Middle East in the era of 600 B.C. - especially for religious documents. Most significant, perhaps, is the ancient practice of "scriptorio" - putting the title page at the END of the book, something which is a hallmark of ancient writings on plates from the Middle East, and which is also strong evidence of authenticity for the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith could not have known of "scriptorio" when he translated the gold plates and noted that the title page was at the end, on the last page.

  
  
  
• Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon
  You will definitely want to read this one.  Follow the link this guy gives in this paragraph, because IMO, it truely is amazing.
  

  A recent discovery is that ancient Middle Eastern poetry - including the Bible - often used a poetical form called chiasmus, a form of parallelism in which key ideas are structured in a mirror image reflective form such as A,B,C,C\',B\',A\'. Some of the most powerful and beautiful examples of this ancient form are found in the Book of Mormon (first discovered in 1967 by John Welch). The importance of chiasmus in ancient Semitic writings has only been recognized in this century, and still today very few educated people have ever heard of it. Its strong presence in the Book of Mormon is evidence that its writers possessed an ancient Semitic literary tradition, as the Book of Mormon claims, and (in my opinion) single-handedly refutes the claim that the Book of Mormon is the product of a 19th century writer (though there are numerous other factors that refute such a claim). Alma 36 is a classic example. For details - fascinating evidence that the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient document - see my new "Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon" page.

  
  How could a farmer boy with a fourth grade education write such an advanced form of Chiasmus poetry?  My answer: he couldn\'t.
  

I posted this link in this thread already, but you probably missed it:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml -- this is where I got the info above from.  It contains a lot more evidences than what I posted, and also goes into detail about some of the things I posted above, so go ahead and read it.  It gives accurate landmarks that were not discovered until recently that fit the Book of Mormon\'s description of them perfectly, as well as many other things that Joseph Smith himself could not have known.

This thread should be closed.

[GmanJoe]

*laughs at ironfist*

You guys also believe that Jesus was a polygamist! Three wives? BWAHAHAHAHA!

This is too easy! You can\'t debate with me.

Have fun at your next End of Earth Day jamboree!

Originally posted by Vapor Snake
This thread should be closed.

Stop that stuff, this is actually a decent thread to read in here for once.

[videoholic]

Originally posted by Vapor Snake
This thread should be closed.

Is this your first post in the thread?  Why would you want it closed?  It\'s a discussion between several people.  No one is bashing anyone and it\'s a huge thread.  Unbelievable.  

Anyone find the arc yet?  Just checking.

[GmanJoe]

Originally posted by Videoholic


Anyone find the arc yet?  Just checking.

Nope. I did find Jimmy Hoffa and the Loch Ness monster.